Experiment in Socialism

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SwordMaster
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby SwordMaster » 21 Apr 2009 22:45

GamePlayer wrote:There's enough middle management in the world already trashing people with intelligence and vision. Last thing we need is a post-secondary education system with more of that. My country is in desperate need of a generation willing to take risk and a system that provides scope for their talents, not stifles them.


Im not sure I follow you. Why does Canada have a desperate need? In what scope of talent? Leadership? Politics?
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Apr 2009 02:32

SwordMaster wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:There's enough middle management in the world already trashing people with intelligence and vision. Last thing we need is a post-secondary education system with more of that. My country is in desperate need of a generation willing to take risk and a system that provides scope for their talents, not stifles them.


Im not sure I follow you. Why does Canada have a desperate need? In what scope of talent? Leadership? Politics?


I think GP feels that we don't take risks as a country in any/most areas, public and private. I should let him answer questions aimed at him though... damned gin.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Rakis » 22 Apr 2009 08:33

:text-yeahthat:
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby GamePlayer » 22 Apr 2009 12:30

SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure I follow you. Why does Canada have a desperate need? In what scope of talent? Leadership? Politics?


Canada is a nation of middle management and risk aversion, generally speaking. Which leads to our infamous "brain drain." Most of our home grown talent invariably moves south of the border or globally. Why? Because nations like the U.S. breed risk takers and innovators. They have a system which encourages and fosters those willing to bet their talent against the risk involved in whatever venture. Science, technology, music, film and many more industries simply are not aligned in my country to seize advantage of the plentiful natural talent of the Canadian people. You have an entire nation with some of the best education in the world, plentiful personal freedom and incredible cultural diversity, but no institutions to seize advantage of these talents. It's one of the worst flaws of my country.

However, Canada's unique position means we don't have to do anything. As an allied neighbour to the worlds super power, we enjoy one of the most profitable trade economies in the world. On top of that, Canada is a country literally bursting with rich, plentiful natural resources and a tiny population utilizing only a small portion of them. As a result we export billions to other countries eager to pay good money for our top end goods. This has created a Canada which is insanely rich and ridiculously comfortable. In light of this microcosm we've built, most feel there is little sense in spending lots and risking much when we can simply afford to buy anything we could ever want. Someone invents technology, we buy it. Someone sells entertainment, we buy it. There appears to be little incentive for us to risk and innovate on our own since it's so much easier to simply buy everything we need with our big fat wallets.

Which brings into focus the Canadian dilemma. There is more to be gained by risking and innovating that just a comfortable, well-provided life. There is pride. And since Canada doesn't spend enough on research and development or risky ventures in any of a number of industries, nor does it have a strong cultural export industry, Canada has very little pride beyond the basics in life. But having free medical care, a comfortable job and money in the bank is not what inspires people. Without inspiration, our generations grow up without any great need to innovate and become complacent with increasingly inefficient systems.

The best and the brightest Canadians who cannot abide the limitations inherent in our stifling systems simply leave. Our aviators and engineers get hired by NASA. Our scientists move to European and American companies. Our doctors are lured to higher paying jobs outside the country. Our musicians move to better cultural scenes. Our actors and directors go to Hollywood. This leaves our industries in Canada without the best of our generations and as a result, our pride suffers.

Hence, we need to encourage risk and innovation. We need to spend more on R&D. And most importantly we need to change our way of thinking so that our industries cultivate the new generations that will risk, innovate and achieve for ourselves.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Rakis » 22 Apr 2009 13:38

Our doctors are lured to higher paying jobs outside the country.


Yeah, we're feeling that pretty much in Quebec...Our health system is beginning to crumble and with the population getting old, that means not enough people to take care of the elderly, the sick,etc...

We are shooting ourselves in the foot and, in a few years, won't have anybody to treat that injury... :(

No wonder there are so many financial scandals in Canada...people take risks above the Law... :naughty:
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby SwordMaster » 22 Apr 2009 15:31

GamePlayer wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure I follow you. Why does Canada have a desperate need? In what scope of talent? Leadership? Politics?


Canada is a nation of middle management and risk aversion, generally speaking. Which leads to our infamous "brain drain." Most of our home grown talent invariably moves south of the border or globally. Why? Because nations like the U.S. breed risk takers and innovators. They have a system which encourages and fosters those willing to bet their talent against the risk involved in whatever venture. Science, technology, music, film and many more industries simply are not aligned in my country to seize advantage of the plentiful natural talent of the Canadian people. You have an entire nation with some of the best education in the world, plentiful personal freedom and incredible cultural diversity, but no institutions to seize advantage of these talents. It's one of the worst flaws of my country.

However, Canada's unique position means we don't have to do anything. As an allied neighbour to the worlds super power, we enjoy one of the most profitable trade economies in the world. On top of that, Canada is a country literally bursting with rich, plentiful natural resources and a tiny population utilizing only a small portion of them. As a result we export billions to other countries eager to pay good money for our top end goods. This has created a Canada which is insanely rich and ridiculously comfortable. In light of this microcosm we've built, most feel there is little sense in spending lots and risking much when we can simply afford to buy anything we could ever want. Someone invents technology, we buy it. Someone sells entertainment, we buy it. There appears to be little incentive for us to risk and innovate on our own since it's so much easier to simply buy everything we need with our big fat wallets.

Which brings into focus the Canadian dilemma. There is more to be gained by risking and innovating that just a comfortable, well-provided life. There is pride. And since Canada doesn't spend enough on research and development or risky ventures in any of a number of industries, nor does it have a strong cultural export industry, Canada has very little pride beyond the basics in life. But having free medical care, a comfortable job and money in the bank is not what inspires people. Without inspiration, our generations grow up without any great need to innovate and become complacent with increasingly inefficient systems.

The best and the brightest Canadians who cannot abide the limitations inherent in our stifling systems simply leave. Our aviators and engineers get hired by NASA. Our scientists move to European and American companies. Our doctors are lured to higher paying jobs outside the country. Our musicians move to better cultural scenes. Our actors and directors go to Hollywood. This leaves our industries in Canada without the best of our generations and as a result, our pride suffers.

Hence, we need to encourage risk and innovation. We need to spend more on R&D. And most importantly we need to change our way of thinking so that our industries cultivate the new generations that will risk, innovate and achieve for ourselves.


Well said, but not true IMO. Thanks for the detail though GP. I see no point in a debate. Just a different PoV. My personal pride has never and will never suffer in any form. Our tiny population creates the highest % per capita of nearly all those you list, and because they move to the global culture centers of the world, does not mean they leave Canada behind. Your point about doctors is some what true, and a good argument for a capitalist medical system.

But at the same time a public healthcare system is more valuable then a few greedy doctors. I look at our business leader and again I miss your point. The innovation that comes out of Canadian business and science is again extremely un-proportional to our population.

Because our aviators and engineers go to NASA does not mean that Canada should have a space program. Anyhow, thanks for the post but its just not my view of our great nation.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Crysknife » 22 Apr 2009 18:28

Socialism is crap, everyone knows it. But some socialist systems are better when integrated into a capitalist society. I find it in bad taste to make huge amounts of profit on people's illnesses, but that's just me. We don't ask people to pay when their house is burning down.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Robspierre » 22 Apr 2009 18:30

New Mexico State University is overall a conservative leaning college. The English department is moderately liberal while, the engineering, ag, and business colleges lean middle to hard right. College of Education is fairly moderate, with a few radicals such as myself and decent religious right leaning faction. Not sure about other colleges within the university. The large hispanic influence does show in cultural attitudes among many of the staff and students.

In the college of education they are having a lot of issues with incoming students. The CoE requires a C or higher in the courses you take in order to pass while University policy is a D. My advisor told me that rather than retake the class to get a C or better, students are transferring out of the CoE into other degree plans where a D is acceptable. I have also noticed that a lot of the students right out of high school have a chip on their shoulder and thin they know everything, unlike those of us who spent years in the real world busting our ass to get by who don't know shit. I truly believe if you want to teach, you need ot spend at least four years out in reality and not go straight into teaching, you miss on experiences that cannot be replicated in college.

This current generation does not value hard work to achieve their goals. They would rather spend all their time playing. I've seen this in my classes and at work with the kids I supervise. Doesn't matter their ethnicity or socioeconomic background, their work ethic is completely different from mine and other generations. They know what they are to do but choose to not do it, they would rather have someone tell them constantly what to do. Then they do a half assed job and actually believe they worked hard!

I had one teacher who would assign you what ever grade he wanted I respect his knowledge but he is a hypocrite who treats undergraduates with contempt and then gives graduate students a free pass and ignored his own criteria as laid out in the syllabus.

BUT. You only get out of a class the effort you put into it. There are numerous classes that are nothing but busy work but like anything you have to jump through the hoops and put it all into perspective. Take the class material and make it your own! My technology n the classroom was all busy work, I took it upon myself ot use the opportunity to use the class tools ot work for me in other classes instead of doing what everyone else did which was not do the work and bitch all the time.


Rob

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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby chanilover » 23 Apr 2009 16:35

GamePlayer wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure I follow you. Why does Canada have a desperate need? In what scope of talent? Leadership? Politics?


Canada is a nation of middle management and risk aversion, generally speaking. Which leads to our infamous "brain drain." Most of our home grown talent invariably moves south of the border or globally. Why? Because nations like the U.S. breed risk takers and innovators. They have a system which encourages and fosters those willing to bet their talent against the risk involved in whatever venture. Science, technology, music, film and many more industries simply are not aligned in my country to seize advantage of the plentiful natural talent of the Canadian people. You have an entire nation with some of the best education in the world, plentiful personal freedom and incredible cultural diversity, but no institutions to seize advantage of these talents. It's one of the worst flaws of my country.

However, Canada's unique position means we don't have to do anything. As an allied neighbour to the worlds super power, we enjoy one of the most profitable trade economies in the world. On top of that, Canada is a country literally bursting with rich, plentiful natural resources and a tiny population utilizing only a small portion of them. As a result we export billions to other countries eager to pay good money for our top end goods. This has created a Canada which is insanely rich and ridiculously comfortable. In light of this microcosm we've built, most feel there is little sense in spending lots and risking much when we can simply afford to buy anything we could ever want. Someone invents technology, we buy it. Someone sells entertainment, we buy it. There appears to be little incentive for us to risk and innovate on our own since it's so much easier to simply buy everything we need with our big fat wallets.

Which brings into focus the Canadian dilemma. There is more to be gained by risking and innovating that just a comfortable, well-provided life. There is pride. And since Canada doesn't spend enough on research and development or risky ventures in any of a number of industries, nor does it have a strong cultural export industry, Canada has very little pride beyond the basics in life. But having free medical care, a comfortable job and money in the bank is not what inspires people. Without inspiration, our generations grow up without any great need to innovate and become complacent with increasingly inefficient systems.

The best and the brightest Canadians who cannot abide the limitations inherent in our stifling systems simply leave. Our aviators and engineers get hired by NASA. Our scientists move to European and American companies. Our doctors are lured to higher paying jobs outside the country. Our musicians move to better cultural scenes. Our actors and directors go to Hollywood. This leaves our industries in Canada without the best of our generations and as a result, our pride suffers.

Hence, we need to encourage risk and innovation. We need to spend more on R&D. And most importantly we need to change our way of thinking so that our industries cultivate the new generations that will risk, innovate and achieve for ourselves.


Oh you poor things, it must be so awful for you, living in that affluent, comfortable country. My heart bleeds for you. :lol:
"You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby chanilover » 23 Apr 2009 16:39

Phaedrus wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
chanilover wrote:That's a valuable life lesson. A lot of people graduate from university and think they know it all, and really struggle when it comes to working life. Not everyone is going to be convinced of your brilliance, and they won't particularly care what you think of anything if you can't follow instructions.


most university classes (particularly in an undergrad) simply teach students how to regurgitate "facts" and the prof's POV. this is why most people can get through a university degree relatively easily. I think standards need to be raised and flunk out rates increased to over 50%.


This.

Chanilover, I would agree with you, except that I don't think of college as something that prepares people for a career. I think of it as an educational institution first, with career-preparation as a secondary effect. And while it's great for career preparation that there are shitty assholes teaching classes(since there will be shitty assholes in charge at work), it's terrible for actually educating students. And an education system that prepares people to work but not to think is a complete failure that turns people into machines.



:lol: :lol: :lol: Machines! Give me a break. A lot of graduates are unemployable, as their heads are filled with useless shit and delusions of adequacy.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Phaedrus » 23 Apr 2009 16:56

chanilover wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
chanilover wrote:That's a valuable life lesson. A lot of people graduate from university and think they know it all, and really struggle when it comes to working life. Not everyone is going to be convinced of your brilliance, and they won't particularly care what you think of anything if you can't follow instructions.


most university classes (particularly in an undergrad) simply teach students how to regurgitate "facts" and the prof's POV. this is why most people can get through a university degree relatively easily. I think standards need to be raised and flunk out rates increased to over 50%.


This.

Chanilover, I would agree with you, except that I don't think of college as something that prepares people for a career. I think of it as an educational institution first, with career-preparation as a secondary effect. And while it's great for career preparation that there are shitty assholes teaching classes(since there will be shitty assholes in charge at work), it's terrible for actually educating students. And an education system that prepares people to work but not to think is a complete failure that turns people into machines.



:lol: :lol: :lol: Machines! Give me a break. A lot of graduates are unemployable, as their heads are filled with useless shit and delusions of adequacy.


You say that(and you'd think that), but they get hired anyway for silly reasons(their dad knows someone in some company somewhere, usually, or something similar). At least on this side of the Atlantic. It's pretty stupid.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but I think the actual situation is a broader picture than the one you're painting. Competency, intelligence, and a head full of useful knowledge aren't altogether desirable traits for employees, for a lot of corporations.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby chanilover » 23 Apr 2009 17:04

Phaedrus wrote:
chanilover wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
chanilover wrote:That's a valuable life lesson. A lot of people graduate from university and think they know it all, and really struggle when it comes to working life. Not everyone is going to be convinced of your brilliance, and they won't particularly care what you think of anything if you can't follow instructions.


most university classes (particularly in an undergrad) simply teach students how to regurgitate "facts" and the prof's POV. this is why most people can get through a university degree relatively easily. I think standards need to be raised and flunk out rates increased to over 50%.


This.

Chanilover, I would agree with you, except that I don't think of college as something that prepares people for a career. I think of it as an educational institution first, with career-preparation as a secondary effect. And while it's great for career preparation that there are shitty assholes teaching classes(since there will be shitty assholes in charge at work), it's terrible for actually educating students. And an education system that prepares people to work but not to think is a complete failure that turns people into machines.



:lol: :lol: :lol: Machines! Give me a break. A lot of graduates are unemployable, as their heads are filled with useless shit and delusions of adequacy.


You say that(and you'd think that), but they get hired anyway for silly reasons(their dad knows someone in some company somewhere, usually, or something similar). At least on this side of the Atlantic. It's pretty stupid.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but I think the actual situation is a broader picture than the one you're painting. Competency, intelligence, and a head full of useful knowledge aren't altogether desirable traits for employees, for a lot of corporations.


I'm talking from experience, where people who graduated the same time as me couldn't get jobs because either the degrees they had were useless or their attitude stank at interviews. No one likes a smartarse. All I can say is thank God my dad gave me a few words of wisdom when I was fresh out of uni and about to start work, otherwise I might have ended up like them.

What sort of company wants incompetent staff with no knowledge? I have no idea when you got that from, unless you're talking about Burger King. Even there, they train their staff on how to cook burgers and operate the till. No business wants incompetent staff.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Phaedrus » 23 Apr 2009 17:23

You're in the politics forum, but you haven't paid any attention to the blatant mismanagement of U.S. banks? That kind of thing stretches from the top to the bottom of the corporate structure in this country...comics like Dilbert and shows like the Office are things that are funny because they're true...

Most of my information comes secondhand from people I know, none of whom has stories to tell about their amazingly competent coworkers, whether they're working at Burger King, teaching at a school, or programming for software companies. Incompetence is far more common than competence, even in the workplace.

But really, the saying that "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is all too true. Incompetent people with connections will always get hired over incompetent people without them. Businesses may not want incompetent staff, but they hire and pay them anyway.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby chanilover » 23 Apr 2009 18:06

Who said I haven't paid attention to the mess the US banks are in? Despite not living in the US, it's impossible to avoid stories of what goes on in that country. The UK banks are no better off, I worked for an investment bank but left and now I'm with a law firm. My boyfriend works in futures, so I have a fair bit of first hand knowledge of how the banks work.

I don't know why your friends haven't got any stories of competent fellow employees. I can only assume that they have an undeserved feeling of superiority towards their colleagues. I've met people like that, they're invariably laughing stocks, although they're too conceited to realise. In work I've come across a fair mix of skills, including talented, dedicated people and stupid incompetent sods. My manager at the bank was great, a legend in his own lunchtime. I do miss the long pissy lunches, but he was an intelligent, hard working and hard playing guy - not a "machine" and not incompetent.

By the way, The Office was a British TV programme which was based in a dead-end town (Slough), with people in dead-end jobs. The US version was a load of old shit.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Phaedrus » 23 Apr 2009 18:14

chanilover wrote:Who said I haven't paid attention to the mess the US banks are in? Despite not living in the US, it's impossible to avoid stories of what goes on in that country. The UK banks are no better off, I worked for an investment bank but left and now I'm with a law firm. My boyfriend works in futures, so I have a fair bit of first hand knowledge of how the banks work.


Just saying, it's an obvious example of the phenomenon I'm talking about.

I don't know why your friends haven't got any stories of competent fellow employees. I can only assume that they have an undeserved feeling of superiority towards their colleagues. I've met people like that, they're invariably laughing stocks, although they're too conceited to realise. In work I've come across a fair mix of skills, including talented, dedicated people and stupid incompetent sods. My manager at the bank was great, a legend in his own lunchtime. I do miss the long pissy lunches, but he was an intelligent, hard working and hard playing guy - not a "machine" and not incompetent.


I dislike psychoanalysis. And I'm realizing that this discussion really can't go anywhere, because we're coming at the problem from two completely different viewpoints. You endorse the entire system we're stuck in, and I think it's a total shithole that should have been scrapped decades ago. We're not going to come to any sort of agreement on anything.

By the way, The Office was a British TV programme which was based in a dead-end town (Slough), with people in dead-end jobs. The US version was a load of old shit.


IS a load of shit, you must mean, as it's still running and quite popular.
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Apr 2009 19:03

Phaedrus wrote:...comics like Dilbert and shows like the Office are things that are funny because they're true...


My wife doesn't understand why I like "The Office".
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby GamePlayer » 23 Apr 2009 23:49

chanilover wrote:Oh you poor things, it must be so awful for you, living in that affluent, comfortable country. My heart bleeds for you. :lol:


"Your heart doesn't bleed for anyone, Mr. Udall" :P
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Re: Experiment in Socialism

Postby chanilover » 26 Apr 2009 17:16

Anyway, the UK version of The Office was set in godforsaken shithole Slough, which isn't much more than a giant trading estate. There's a poem which goes "Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough". Here it is -

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn’t fit for humans now,
There isn’t grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!
>
Come, bombs and blow to smithereens
Those air -conditioned, bright canteens,
Tinned fruit, tinned meat, tinned milk, tinned beans,
Tinned minds, tinned breath.
>
Mess up the mess they call a town-
A house for ninety-seven down
And once a week a half a crown
For twenty years.
>
And get that man with double chin
Who’ll always cheat and always win,
Who washes his repulsive skin
In women’s tears:
>
And smash his desk of polished oak
And smash his hands so used to stroke
And stop his boring dirty joke
And make him yell.
>
But spare the bald young clerks who add
The profits of the stinking cad;
It’s not their fault that they are mad,
They’ve tasted Hell.
>
It’s not their fault they do not know
The birdsong from the radio,
It’s not their fault they often go
To Maidenhead
>
And talk of sport and makes of cars
In various bogus-Tudor bars
And daren’t look up and see the stars
But belch instead.
>
In labour-saving homes, with care
Their wives frizz out peroxide hair
And dry it in synthetic air
And paint their nails.
>
Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough
To get it ready for the plough.
The cabbages are coming now;
The earth exhales.
"You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
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