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    Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby trang » 02 Nov 2011 09:11

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I don't see any reason Islam would do any worse with Democracy than Christianity did, they're not such vastly different religions. Radical anything and democracy have some troubles though.


    No I haven't and had not planned to (its probably better reading than KJA/BH's shit) and I dont believe there has been any successful use of Christianity either. I guess I worded that wrong. I was more aimed at religious doctrine being used as the basis for rule of law in a modern society. Democracy being of the people, by the people, and for the people, seems to be a direct clash with sharia ideals. The PEOPLE rose up against tyranny, and have the same leaders of that movement turn around and slap a dated and draconian discipline back on them seems idiotic.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 09:19

    trang wrote:..tool...



    He said "tool". Huh, huh.

    :character-beavisbutthead:
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 17:44

    Freak - There's plenty of moderate Islam out there, Christianity has all the same KILL EVERYONE stuff in it and they've managed to mellow some of it out in some sects. It's the same deal - it's only certain interpretations that lead to the shittyness, you can't take something translated into our language that comes out in a way that as you said makes no sense and use that as any kind of indicator of meaning, single quotes mean nothing outside of context. (The Bible says very clearly to kill our children if they curse their parents, does anyone use THAT to argue how dangerous it is? Nope, because it's obviously crap and nobody follows it).

    The majority of Islam is already moderate, and they already HAVE Democratic countries, and participate just fine in other democratic countries that aren't Islam-ruled. So this isn't even an argument that makes any sense, it's already over and done with and settled. Plus, Shariah law IS for the people, it's just in a way that can be taken really wrong and do a lot of damage (which it OFTEN is). In more ways than not Islam is far more "for the people" than Christianity is - that's part of why it spreads like wildfire in poor countries.

    Imagine in Christians took everything in the Bible seriously - half the planet would be dead or dying in 10 minutes. :lol:

    NOW that I've gotten that out of my system YES I agree that THIS KIND of Shariah law being implimented there would be a very sad thing, very sad. (sorry it just drives me nuts when people pick on Islam without proper evidence or understanding, they're batshit crazy for sure, but so are the Christians, I actually think Islam is the better religion of the two if followed "properly")
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 18:20

    Sorry, but I don't remember Jesus saying "kill the non-believers" in my bible. But of course, both books are full of absurdities and contradictions.

    My current favorite bible verse:

    Exodus 21:10-11 (King James Version)

    21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

    21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 18:28

    Jesus didn't say that, I could dig up endless quotes from the Bible that extremely biggoted and dangerious though - but neither did Muhammed specifically as I understand it, in the context apparently it can have a much different meaning. Hell, they're supposed to love and respect Christians and Jews too according to scripture.

    My favourite from the bible is hard, there are so many whacky ones. My favourite commandment is maybe the one where if a woman is accused of cheating on her husband, it doesn't matter if she did or didn't - if her father can't produce the blood stained bedsheets from her wedding night proving that she was a virgin back then she is to be stoned to death.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 18:37

    Freakzilla wrote:Have you read any of the Quran? It instructs you to kill non-believers (but not to be the agressor?). I don't know how to interpret that moderately.

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm


    I just looked at that and all I found at a quick glance was this EXTREMELY moderate passage from the Quran, more moderate than anything I've seen in the new testament about other religions in fact.

    109: The Disbelievers
    109:1 Say: O disbelievers!
    109:2 I worship not that which ye worship;
    109:3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
    109:4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
    109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.


    "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."
    Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes.



    Now, as far as what I''ve learned this is actually not the common belief even amongst moderate Islamics, they are out to convert people and not just let them be - but they're one hell of a lot more out to convert people than they are to kill them just because they believe something else.

    EDIT: My point is that all the peaceful stuff like this in the Quran easily counterbalance the passages that can be taken to mean being crazy and violent and show that it's an interpretation problem.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 18:47

    And from the same website (NOTE: don't take shit on that website seriously, I used to frequent it before I learned more about Christianity and Islam, it basically just takes all the quotes with no proper interpretation or putting them in their era and makes fun of them, it's a site for entertainment, not education).

    Here is a summary of the highlighted verses in the SAB and SAQ.
    Number of Cruel or Violent Passages
    Bible 1214
    Quran 527
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 18:51

    The Cow

    2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
    2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

    And you're right, the Christian god is way more violent.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 18:59

    Freakzilla wrote:The Cow

    2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
    2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

    And you're right, the Christian god is way more violent.



    This passage is totally reasonable, all it says is that if people from another religion persecute or attack you to fight back with maximum force, but gives instructions to not fight on holy ground, to not torment them just to kill them, to stop immediately when they stop being the agressor - this passage is awesome, if I was writing up a religion I don't think I could write it better myself!

    Except for line 2:193 which could be interpreted to mean that not only do you fight them until they stop, but also until they convert, but only treat the people that attacked you first this way.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 19:07

    Right, but my point was (I think) that there is nothing comparable in the teachings of Jesus.

    However, in the Old Testament it seemed God would kill anyone for anything.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Nov 2011 19:20

    There's stuff in the new testament that's pretty horrible, but I don't think anything direct about warfare - it's more general bigot stuff. And I don't think much of it is attributed to Jesus either, it's mostly his followers' writings.

    I don't have any issue with stuff like that though, even my all time favourite religion Sikhism has lots of killing people stuff, but it's all positive killing.

    That Cow passage sounds a lot like how the US deals with threats, when someone attacks you hit them back as hard as you can without being ridiculous about it (try not to kill people during Ramadan, etc) and don't stop until they're both surrendering and converting to the western way of life. Surprisingly similar actually! :wink: :lol:
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 20:11

    Inside every gook is an American trying to get out. We have to keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

    (Not Blues Brothers, Big Lebowski or Red Dawn :wink: )
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby SandRider » 02 Nov 2011 20:16

    shit, that's right ... you quote the hell out of Full Metal Jacket, too ...
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2011 20:26

    I wish I'd seen that movie before I enlisted, basic training would have been a boring replay.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 03 Nov 2011 02:06

    It's not so much about how many violent passages one can find in "sacred" texts, but about how their teachings are interpreted through cultural points of view.

    Let's take language for example: It's a man made construct; feminist scholars have argued that one of the first things that women must do in order to find their "voice" is to embark on a journey of semantic trans-valuation. Words are not neutral. Consider how many words there are for describing a sexually promiscuous man (most with positive connotations) as opposed to the plethora of negatively charged adjectives and nouns used to describe and label promiscuous women. Words are "pockets" for meaning.

    Now introduce religion, and guess what happens... Each concept acquires "divine" momentum, thus rigidifying meanings into tradition.
    If one were to read religious literature in an allegorical way then this wouldn't be an irreparable problem, but when we place too much value on the (supposedly) inherent meaning of a certain text, then all hell breaks loose.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Nov 2011 14:57

    I wasn't going to comment, but I'm glad you mentioned that about the site, Thing. It takes so many things out of context that I haven't looked at it again since the first time.

    Actually in my experience so far, when it comes to religion/philosophy atheists are just as dumb as Christians (&etc), just more smug about their supposed intelligence.

    That is a generalisation, of course, and not true in all cases - such as those before us now. :wink:

    ***

    A good example of words with embedded meaning in religion is the word 'natural'. To a Christian the way the world is includes a objective morality, so claiming that something is natural also often includes morality. However the modern definition of the word is mostly a tautology, claiming that anything that exists is natural.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 15:01

    I don't pay much attention to the commentary there, I just think it's a convenient site for reference to the three books. (I haven't read the Book of Mormon, though.)
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 03 Nov 2011 17:30

    SadisticCynic wrote:I wasn't going to comment, but I'm glad you mentioned that about the site, Thing. It takes so many things out of context that I haven't looked at it again since the first time.

    Actually in my experience so far, when it comes to religion/philosophy atheists are just as dumb as Christians (&etc), just more smug about their supposed intelligence.

    That is a generalisation, of course, and not true in all cases - such as those before us now. :wink:

    ***

    A good example of words with embedded meaning in religion is the word 'natural'. To a Christian the way the world is includes a objective morality, so claiming that something is natural also often includes morality. However the modern definition of the word is mostly a tautology, claiming that anything that exists is natural.

    Yep. Many atheists are pricks, and just as dumb as any religious fanatic. They misinterpret atheism as something that delegitimizes all ethical and moral codes. Living 'Beyond Good and Evil' does not mean being an asshole. I have found myself in heated arguments over the existence of metaphysical intelligences, and if the person arguing for the existence of 'God' shows that he is well read and supports his claims in an elegant way, then the least I can do is reciprocate his or her effort in the most amicable way possible. Who am I to disregard a 67 year old Jesuit professor's life work? (the guy even knows Nietzsche better than I do)

    I've had the 'whats natural' debate a few times as well. It's a great example of how we tend to separate ourselves from what we are analyzing, as if we could remove ourselves form the phenomenological world and observe nature from a privileged perspective (not constrained by our 'natural humanity' = tautology). Reason and logic are as much to blame for this error as religion.

    I think Frank Herbert wrote about the limits of logic in some of his epigraphs, something about closed systems only knowing their own past and how the universe is always one step beyond logic.
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 17:42

    Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that
    makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.

    -from "The Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Nov 2011 17:52

    Actually I only sort of agree with Herbert on that point. Logic is only limited in two places (as I see it).The choice of appropriate axioms, and the incompleteness theorems. I don't know how to defend the first condition, but the second condition does leave room for alternate ways of deciding problems. In particular, Godel's theorem is equivalent to Turing's. All Turing showed was that there is no *algorithmic* way of deciding certain problems. There may be another way...

    Indeed certain problems cannot be solved computationally, but creative tricks can lead to answers. Reformulating again, Godel showed that there exists a statement for which it is either true and unprovable or false and provable. Since the second choice introduces a contradiction, one is inclined (however tentatively) to accept the first as being true. However this can never be demonstrated formally.

    I must admit to having prejudice in the form of mathematical realism though... :wink:
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 03 Nov 2011 23:49

    SadisticCynic wrote:Actually I only sort of agree with Herbert on that point. Logic is only limited in two places (as I see it).The choice of appropriate axioms, and the incompleteness theorems. I don't know how to defend the first condition, but the second condition does leave room for alternate ways of deciding problems. In particular, Godel's theorem is equivalent to Turing's. All Turing showed was that there is no *algorithmic* way of deciding certain problems. There may be another way...

    Indeed certain problems cannot be solved computationally, but creative tricks can lead to answers. Reformulating again, Godel showed that there exists a statement for which it is either true and unprovable or false and provable. Since the second choice introduces a contradiction, one is inclined (however tentatively) to accept the first as being true. However this can never be demonstrated formally.

    I must admit to having prejudice in the form of mathematical realism though... :wink:

    :shock: :oops:
    I believe that I'm out of my depth here. In college I avoided courses on Logic because of the horror stories that my friends who majored in philosophy told me about them. I've dabbled with many philosophers from different periods but the closest I have gotten to reading a mathematician/logician is Bertrand Russel's Why I am not a Christian, and it doesn't deal with the subject at hand. That said, after reading your post I read wiki's info on Godel and mathematical realism. WOW. Mind blowing stuff. I cant say that I understood half of what I read, but after a while some things about the incompleteness theorems started making sense:

    Relation to the liar paradox

    The liar paradox is the sentence "This sentence is false." An analysis of the liar sentence shows that it cannot be true (for then, as it asserts, it is false), nor can it be false (for then, it is true). A Gödel sentence G for a theory T makes a similar assertion to the liar sentence, but with truth replaced by provability: G says "G is not provable in the theory T." The analysis of the truth and provability of G is a formalized version of the analysis of the truth of the liar sentence.

    It is not possible to replace "not provable" with "false" in a Gödel sentence because the predicate "Q is the Gödel number of a false formula" cannot be represented as a formula of arithmetic. This result, known as Tarski's undefinability theorem, was discovered independently by Gödel (when he was working on the proof of the incompleteness theorem) and by Alfred Tarski.


    Like you said (I think), lack of provability does not mean that the premise is false.
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby SadisticCynic » 04 Nov 2011 07:19

    I've read some Russell myself, and I think he's quite brilliant. I think they were 'The Problems of Philosophy', 'Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy' and 'Principles of Mathematics'. I wouldn't recommend Principles unless you are very familiar with logic and the foundations of maths. I'm sure I didn't understand quite alot of it properly. The 'Introduction...' however is quite readable, although dated, since it is before Godel, Turing and Tarski's results.

    The only other real philosophy I've read is about half of Plato's complete works - I was motivated by the alternate term mathematical Platonism. Actually after reading some Jung (where he mentions some stuff about Nietzsche, mostly in connection with cryptomnesia) I've been tempted to pick up a copy of Thus Spake Zarathustra. I've never been sure whether that's a good one to start with - any hints?
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 04 Nov 2011 15:22

    <Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy by Russell added to wish list> ;)

    I'd strongly recommend starting with Human all too Human and/or Beyond Good and Evil. Those two will give you a panoramic understanding of the recurrent themes in his philosophy, which in turn will make reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra much easier. The thing about Zarathustra is that it's Nietzsche's attempt to write in a biblical style, thus presenting his ideas in a way that may lack clarity for those who are not familiar with his earlier work.

    You should avoid pre Walter Kaufmann translations. Nietzsche's sister (a fervent anti-semite), after he got sick, edited his writings in ways that tarnished his reputation for decades (Bertrand Russell was very critical of his ideas). Scholars like Kaufmann rescued and translated the original manuscripts and vindicated his philosophy. So, any post Kaufmann translation should be fine.

    I heard there's a new movie coming out about Jung and Freud with Viggo Mortensen called "A Dangerous Method". I've read about Jung but never any of his writings. Maybe I will, now that I know that he talks about my favorite philosopher. :D
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    Re: Colonel Gadaffi And His Fish Speakers

    Postby SadisticCynic » 06 Nov 2011 18:32

    Actually I'm not sure that he talks too much about Nietzsche's ideas. (I should point out that at some point, if not already, I AM going to spell that name incorrectly).

    What it is is that there is a story/parable thing in Zarathustra which is almost an exact copy of a story from another earlier book. They are so similar as to make one suspect plagiarism, which seems an unlikely thing of someone like Nietzsche. However, there is evidence that Nietzsche read the book in question when he was very young, and Jung uses this as an example of cryptomnesia.

    Not that I'm trying to put you off reading Jung or anything... :wink:
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