We got bin Laden!

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TheDukester
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 05 May 2011 11:25

Lundse wrote:Your argument that "Obama needs a better approval rating and reelection..." is fine

It's really not.

The "X needs approval/favor/money/whatever from Y" argument has been used by conspiracy-theory wingnuts since the beginning of time, especially in political matters. Remember, these are the same people who thought that Bush II blew up a bunch of buildings and killed thousands of Americans so that he could get the approval of the American people to go to war in the Middle East.

Lundse wrote:... except for one simple fact - it could be said about any president, any day in office since 9/11.

There you go. Not that I really want to participate in any if these delusions, but the simple fact is that it would make 1,000 times more sense for Bush II to have implemented Operation Zombie Osama than it would for our current president. Anyone with a functioning brain will immediately recognize this to be the case.

I didn't read the rest. Not that I don't trust that you make some good points, as you often do, but because it's generally a huge waste of time to argue point-by-point with conspiracy-addled nutcases like our excitable friend. It is, in it's own way, much like trying to reason with a preek. It starts out looking like it might be a worthwhile effort, then quickly disintegrates into farce.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby ErasOmnius » 05 May 2011 11:51

Forget about the Pictures and Where is the Body questions? The real question is - Why not put Bin Laden to the quiz? Why kill him immediately? Unless they did not want him 'talkin', needed him dead immediately, and didn't want him speaking to the soldiers who captured him?

Other issues:
Still waiting for a declaration of War from Congress for the allegedly 'short' war in Libya? Just like Bush who had to go beggin' for Iraq?
Why is the Registrar who signed the Birth Certificate of Obama basically named U K La Lee? Ya know, the musical instrument Ukelele?

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 05 May 2011 12:13

ErasOmnius wrote:The real question is - Why not put Bin Laden to the quiz?


Do you think he would have talked? Do you think the US could get away with torturing such a prominent target?

ErasOmnius wrote:Unless they did not want him 'talkin', needed him dead immediately, and didn't want him speaking to the soldiers who captured him?


Off to conjecture-land. Since I have not yet thought of, or heard a reason, it be because of _this_ which I was, incidentally, already convinced of. How about establishing first, that there are no other viable, or at least less crazy options? Such as:
1) They want to look tough, so we issue a kill order.
2) It would endager the mission and soldiers, to have to take him alive.
3) He holds no value, would give up no information (except, just maybe under the extreme duress we cannot put him through).
4) He would be a politically dangerous captive to hold - poison to our efforts to reach borderline moderate/radical Muslims, no matter what we eventually do with him.
5) If captive, they would have to execute him for reasons of public opinion - maybe the evidence against him is not strong enough to support the death penalty?

I think the only thing they considered was to grab him without anyone knowing, torture and then "find and kill him" or simply "find him dead somewhere"... Oh god, that will be the next spin on this new, endless conspiracy theory :-(

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 May 2011 13:06

Just one small thing to add to the idea that Osama could not have possibly survived so long - he wasn't exactly poor, and his group not dissorganized. Their leader is sick, so it's impossible that they had a dialysis machine and a generator in one of those caves? And doctors, with access to realistically whatever they'd need?

I don't see any realistic reason that they couldn't have done everything to keep him alive that could be done in a proper hospital really.

I'm not saying that disproves him having been dead for some time, just that that whole argument doesn't really hold up as "evidence" for that theory.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 05 May 2011 13:39

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby merkin muffley » 05 May 2011 16:44

Kojiro wrote:Obama needs a better approval rating and reelection, viola... instant Obama dead story.


I think it's time for you to blame your bipolar disorder.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 05 May 2011 18:29

Lundse wrote:OK. I didn't know your conspiracy ran this deep. Now, before we go any further, how about this:

- You find some evidence that Osama has been dead all these years!

And before you do, please stop with the "do the math, please"-snide comments. Even if you are right and he was, your opinion is not based on solid evidence, but conjecture and assumptions.


You find some evidence that they killed Osama when Obama said they did. Dead people with squirt guns don't count.

Your argument that "Obama needs a better approval rating and reelection..." is fine, except for one simple fact - it could be said about any president, any day in office since 9/11. Why didn't Bush do this to secure the Republican base around a self-proclaimed war-time president?


It could be argued that Saddam's capture during Christmas made zombie Osama unnecessary. Anyway, Osama made the perfect bogeyman. "He's still out there, people, plotifying things. We need to still get him before he explodifies America. Reelectivate me." Or... "Vote for McCain and he'll keep us safe from bogeyman Osama! He's still out there, trying to get us and only McCain is strong enough to do it. Full endorsement, btw."

The whole GOP thing needed a scary monster like Osama bin Laden out to get us to justify their war. Obama needed to look like he was doing something as he's been accused of well... diddling around and being indecisive.

Why not do it, just so that Obama could not later, should he win? Your conspiracy theory amounts to saying the Bush administration were incapable or unwilling to do what Obama just did (according to you) - sounds like a fairy tale to me...


What sounds like a fairy tale is Osama bin Laden hanging out in damp caves, risking infection day in and day out, while he has failing kidneys without access to dialysis, and diabetes. Let's see how long you last in a cave with that list of fatal conditions, and get back to me if you've survived for roughly a decade.

With regards to the DNA testing, then just add them to the operational crew that Obama is supposedly betting on will never send an email to wikileaks.


This is assuming it was ever analyzed. We seem to just have Obama's word for that too.

If you think the photo evidence is in any way parallel to the alledged notes, then you misunderstood my argument. KJA will never need the notes. Obama might. And according to you, is betting everything that he will not. And that noone with a legitimate intelligence reason to see it will never cry foul either. How many people are in on this, now?


How many people were in on the alleged WMDs in Iraq that no one ever found?

Oh, all his advisors too. Because they are afraid to get fired. Really?
"Mr. President, I object to deceiving the American public, and I won't let you do this. I'll go public if I have to".
"Oh, yeah. Then you'll be fired!"
"Oh, never mind then".
So no, you are still assuming they are all in on it and OK with it. And that Obama is not afraid any one of them will ever want to publish a book after their days in office...


Continued position of power or jobless.... continued position of power or jobless.... hmm.... Which decision would you make? And hell, Bush had the same thing going with... what was it again... WMDs in Iraq?

But it seems you are pretty set in your belief that Osama was dead already, so there is really no reason to argue anything else, is there? If that is indeed your major hickup here, then dealing with it is quite easy. You are the one making a claim. You should be arguing for it, instead of shooting down everyone arguing that Osama was just killed with "impossible!". So let's hear it - the reason you cannot be dissuaded that Osama has been dead for a long time.


Oh, and stop painting everyone who disagrees with you as "accepting everything the government says". Apart from making you sound childish, it is a strawman and factually wrong. I accept the moon landing as fact, because somewhere close to a million people would have to be in on it, if it were fake. Not likely! I accept this claim because faking it would be absurdly hard and risky. I told you so directly, in fact, and you still claim that I "just believe whatever". I have told you my reasons, now tell me yours - why must Osama be long dead?


No sign of life from him for ten years. A cold, dead trail in the alleged hunt for his location. Comments from government officials that they were becoming certain that he might be dead. It was as though he had completely stopped existing. It is unlikely that a man with his medical condition could have survived in caves for who knows how many years. Furthermore, the government has not supplied any evidence for the president's claims. At the moment Osama's death by Obama is on the level of WMDs in Iraq in nonexistence.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Mandy » 05 May 2011 19:26

I just wanted to comment on the kidney failure bullshit

Once my grandma was diagnosed with kidney failure it took 2 1/2 years before she started dialysis. A person can get along with only 15% - 20% kidney function if they watch what they eat and drink, and take a phosphorus binder. Unless someone has Osama's medical records, there's really no way to know how bad his kidneys were. Diabetes can also be kept in check through diet, in some cases.

Also, I don't believe for a second he lived in a "damp cave" all these years. It would be a dry cave, if anything :)
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby trang » 05 May 2011 21:13

I believe OBL is dead and chum at this point. Good Job SEALS.

If anything, its a good out point to bring troops home from Afghanistan, really hope they do that.

I think a closer look at the relationship with Pakistan is in order, lots of stuff to banter about there. 3.2 billion
in aid should stop.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Eyes High » 06 May 2011 01:56

Well said Trang. :mrgreen:

And I'm with Mandy...damp caves --- NO WAY. :snooty:
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 06 May 2011 02:00

Kojiro wrote:You find some evidence that they killed Osama when Obama said they did.

The burden of proof is actually on you, wingnut.

You are the one elaborate conspiracy theories -- so start proving it. Blow us all away with your amazing evidence.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 06 May 2011 02:26

TheDukester wrote:
Kojiro wrote:You find some evidence that they killed Osama when Obama said they did.

The burden of proof is actually on you, wingnut.


How is the burden of proof on me? Did I go on TV and make an unvarifiable claim? What you're insinuating is that it's true simply because he's the president. It doesn't work that way. What if Obama went on TV next week and said he was visited by space aliens and subsequently didn't show any evidence for that either? Would you also believe him then too? Just because he was the president. Just because a person of authority says something doesn't mean it's true.

You're telling me to prove a negative.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 06 May 2011 02:36

Oh very the fuck well....

However, lets analyze how many times Osama bin laden died as per the official reports:

Year 2001

1) Report: Osama bin laden Already Dead - Wednesday, December 26, 2001 (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html)

2) U.S. Ignores bin Laden Death Reports, Continues Search - NewsMax.com Wires - Wednesday, December 26, 2001 (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 0519.shtml)

Year 2002

Top news media networks announce the death of Osama bin laden:

1) FBI Official Thinks Osama bin laden Is Dead - WASHINGTON, July 17, 2002 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/ ... 5468.shtml)

2) Bin Laden ‘probably’ dead - Thursday, 18 July, 2002, 09:15 GMT 10:15 UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2135473.stm)

3) Sources: No bodyguards, no bin Laden (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/30/binlad ... index.html)

4) Lt. Col. Oliver L. North certain of Osama’s death (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/27/books/27NORT.html)

5) Peter Bergen: Bin Laden has aged ‘enormously’ - February 1, 2002 Posted: 1:24 PM EST (1824 GMT) (http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/01/ge ... index.html)

6) Musharraf: Osama bin laden likely dead - January 19, 2002 Posted: 12:35 AM EST (0535 GMT) (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/s ... index.html)

7) Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis - January 21, 2002 Posted: 10:42 AM EST (1542 GMT) (http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/21/gu ... index.html)

8 ) Bin Laden tape a fake, Swiss lab says Scientists compared recording to 20 other tapes of terror chief - Nov. 28, 2002. 06:23 PM (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... 8705899037)

9) Osama bin laden family DNA will help to identify ‘tall man’ killed by CIA By David Wastell in Washington and Charlotte Edwardes (Filed: 03/03/2002) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... stid=68233)

Year 2003

1) Popular conspiracy-mongering radio host Alex Jones announces, citing high-level Bush administration sources, “that Osama bin laden died of natural causes and that his family has given the body to the CIA.” Jones added, “they’re gonna roll him out right before the election, he’s on ice right now.” (http://www.prisonplanet.com/121703binladendead.html)

2) French military analyst announces that Osama bin laden was killed in an American air raid in Tora Bora shortly after the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 38318.html)

Note: This news article was removed just yesterday following the new announcement of Osama bin laden‘s death. I believe slowly and gradually they will remove all such articles that deal with Osama’s death announcements in the past. So don’t blame me if the links don’t work in future.

Year 2004

February – Iranian Radio reports that Osama bin laden was captured in the Afghan-Pakistan border area “a long time ago” — but the official announcement was delayed because “Bush is intending to use it for propaganda maneuvering in the presidential election.” (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 310332.htm)

Year 2005

April – The Israeli press picks up an account from a radical Muslim London newspaper: “We now report that the al-Qaeda organization has announced the death of Osama bin laden.” (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 37,00.html)

Year 2006

September – French intel document says that Saudis believe bin Laden had died of typhoid in Pakistan. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15024223/ns ... terrorism/)

Year 2008

June – Citing two unnamed officials, Time magazine reports that a recent CIA study has concluded bin Laden has long-term kidney disease and “may only have months to live.” (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 80,00.html)

Year 2009

April – Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari tells the media that his country’s intel services “obviously feel that [bin Laden] does not exist anymore”

and the list goes on….

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 06 May 2011 03:23

Wingnut wrote:How is the burden of proof on me?

Hint: You're the one with the paranoid conspiracy theories. So show us some proof.

Wingnut wrote:What you're insinuating is that it's true simply because he's the president.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. You really should try to stop speaking for other people and/or making assumptions about their motivations. You are incredibly bad at it.

Wingnut wrote:What if Obama went on TV next week and said he was visited by space aliens and subsequently didn't show any evidence for that either?

Strawman. Weak shit, even for you.

Wingnut wrote:Just because a person of authority says something doesn't mean it's true.

Again, no one here has ever claimed otherwise. What don't you get about that? Do you realize how incredibly fucking stupid you sound when you keep harping on this point?**

Wingnut wrote:You're telling me to prove a negative.

No, junior, I'm telling you to grow up.

+++++

**This is one of those "rhetorical questions" you might remember learning about last year in junior high. I already know the answer.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 06 May 2011 03:34

Kojiro wrote:4) Lt. Col. Oliver L. North certain of Osama’s death ...

Oh, well if Ollie North says it's true ...

ImageImageImage

Jesus wept, sport, even the article titles tell me, without having to investigate, that at least 90 percent of those links are completely useless speculation. That passes as "proof" for you?

Seriously, do you even know who Ollie North is? And why it might be foolish to cite him as a source?**

+++++

** Rhetorical again. No need to answer.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 06 May 2011 05:55

Kojiro wrote:You find some evidence that they killed Osama when Obama said they did. Dead people with squirt guns don't count.


Oh no. You are the one claiming he was already dead, and therefore my arguments are invalid. You made a claim, you prove it. That's how this works.


Kojiro wrote:The whole GOP thing needed a scary monster like Osama bin Laden out to get us to justify their war.


And, according to you, they were fine with handing the apparently easy-to-play card of "we just got Bin Laden" over to the Democrats. Why was that again? McCain could not have used some time on the podium with Bush, while the news of Osama's death played over and over again, during the election?
Why, for the love of god, would they hand this over to the opposition?


Kojiro wrote:What sounds like a fairy tale is Osama bin Laden hanging out in damp caves, risking infection day in and day out, while he has failing kidneys without access to dialysis, and diabetes.


See, now you're arguing for him being dead. Great. Unfortunately, you invented the premise of the cave being damp, of him risking infection at all (antibiotics are available elsewhere than America) and that he would have no access to medical health care. Why would a guy with enough money stay away from that? You are making this premise up out of thin air, and consequently, convincing noone.

The damp cave without medical equiptment:
Image


Kojiro wrote:
Lundse wrote:With regards to the DNA testing, then just add them to the operational crew that Obama is supposedly betting on will never send an email to wikileaks.

This is assuming it was ever analyzed. We seem to just have Obama's word for that too.


Sigh. I'll explain it one more time. If you are right in everything you say, then:
Either Obama is simply claiming this DNA was tested, no other people were involved with this lie (than were already involved). In this case, any reporter or conspiracy nut could simply ask "What lab?", "What personel?", "Why can't we see the results?" and he looks immediately suspicious. This would be stupid, and if reporting has not already proven that this was not the case, it will shortly.
Or, someone is lying with Obama on this - more people to add to the huge pile you claim are all in on this, all unflinchingly loyal, and none of whom has made a single mistake tripping up their huge, coordinated story.

See how this works? We assume you are right, and then we see how insane that world in which you are right has to be...


This is becoming a treasure trove of logical fallacies:
Kojiro wrote:Continued position of power or jobless...

False dilemma! That is not the two options they have. I specifically pointed out the option of going to the press, for instance. One could also threaten to go to the press, if fired. Also, "jobless"! Really? These people would be under a bridge in DC, begging for change? You seem to have invented these two options out of the same cloth as Bin Laden's financial position and living conditions. Your premises are created after your conclusion - never a good sign...


You offer the following arguments, why Bin Laden must be dead:

- No sign of life from him for ten years.
- Not surprising, we know he was hiding.

- A cold, dead trail in the alleged hunt for his location.
- See above.

- Comments from government officials that they were becoming certain that he might be dead.
- Speculation. And if your own theory is true, you are saying the same government who wants him alive in people's mind as a bogeymand, and who might need him for a quick fix in public opinion is at the same time telling us he might be dead already. WTF?

- It is unlikely that a man with his medical condition could have survived in caves for who knows how many years.
- If his condition was as severe as you postulate out of thin air, and he had no access to medical equipment, as you also postulate without proof or reason.

None of these hold up, as you can see. You can't just tout your assumptions, made to fit your conclusion, as premises. These have to be able to stand alone.



The WMD lie was more a case of trusting the bad intelligence and ignoring the good - here, they could point back and say "whoops". If this comes to a legal or congressional hearing, they are really, really, going to need the DNA and photo evidence of the body, which they claim to have created themselves. There is absolutely no hiding from being told to show congress a video you said you made yourself, as opposed to having to admit the intelligence was more shaken than one assumed.
The WMD's were a lie, in that they made the public believe it, while knowing better. But they did not lie about anything that could be traced directly to them. You would have us believe Obama, the military, CIA and everyone else involved are betting their jobs, reputations, and a huge jail sentence, if not death for high treason, on something which any one of them could initiate a trial over tomorrow. If, that is, anyone suspects any wrongdoing. Of course they are not claiming to have video evidence unless they have it. NASA didn't claim to put mirrors on the moon, if they had not actually done so, either...

PS: I am not asking you to prove a negative. I am asking you to prove your positive statement "Osama was dead already". As soon as you admit you have no evidence or reasonable grounds for that assumption, the rest of my argument kicks in: why wouldn't Osama just realize a video of himself with todays paper. You absolutely, 100% _need_ the fact that Osama was dead already, for your position to look anything short of moronic. We are asking you to supply the evidence for your premise.

PPS: That guy on the ground, with the squirt gun. Where did you get that picture? Did someone claim that was Bin Laden? Did Osama? Anyone official? Are you saying that because some random nutjob on the net thinks that is Bin Laden, Osama is lying? Are you saying that because someone else used that picture as an attempt at evidence, everyone must be wrong about the case he was trying to prove? I really have no clue why you were including it... Can I support my case, by showing a picture of a deathly ill diabetes patient that someone claims is Bin Laden just about to die 10 years ago, as proof that your claims are wrong?

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Serkanner » 06 May 2011 07:09

@ Ludse ... I wish I had half the patience you have. Bravo :clap:

@ Kojiro ... WTF? :hand:
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 06 May 2011 07:26

Serkanner wrote:@ Ludse ... I wish I had half the patience you have. Bravo :clap:


You know, sometimes I wish I had half the patience I have, too :-)

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby SadisticCynic » 06 May 2011 07:59

Lundse wrote:I am not asking you to prove a negative.


Technically, there is nothing wrong with the concept of proving a negative statement, at least in terms of logic. Proving a statement is true is equivalent to showing that it's negation is false.

Example: prove that the sum of an even and odd number is not even.

Define an even number to be one which has 2 as a divisor, and an odd number one which does not. This is equivalent to the following expressions:

Let 2n be an even number and 2k+1 be an odd number. Then their sum is

s = 2n + 2k + 1
s = 2(n+k) +1
s = 2w + 1 with w = n+k a whole number

Then s is not of the form s = 2n and is therefore not even.

This is equivalent to showing that the sum of an even and odd number is odd.

But you already knew all that. :wink:
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Serkanner » 06 May 2011 08:30

Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 06 May 2011 08:34

SadisticCynic wrote:Technically, there is nothing wrong with the concept of proving a negative statement, at least in terms of logic. Proving a statement is true is equivalent to showing that it's negation is false....


Yes, but they've been reductio - ing ad absurdum for pages now, and the absurdum doesn't recognise his reductio.

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 06 May 2011 09:27

SadisticCynic wrote:
Lundse wrote:I am not asking you to prove a negative.


Technically, there is nothing wrong with the concept of proving a negative statement, at least in terms of logic.


True - a negative statement like "Osama was not dead last month" can of course be proven. What we are really discussing here is burden of proof - I shouldn't have continued the usage of "proving a negative" in this sense, though me and Kojiro are not the first ones to mess this up.

Kojiro is of course right, BTW, that the burden of proof about Osama's death is on Obama and those who believe him.

But since we all agree that if Osama is alive, he would have released a video about it, Kojiro absolutely needs Osama to have been dead already. So unless he can come up with some other reason Osama is not releasing a video (thankfully, he has not tried), he must carry the burden of proof this premise.
So far, he has offereed variations on this: "I think he, despite having money and a huge network of followers, choose to live in a damp cave for years without medical supplies, and that he was sick enough to die from this. Also, some people said so without giving any other reasons than their belief in the same."

PS: I am not saying this is all impossible. I am just saying there is no good reason to believe it. It is also possible Bin Laden slipped on the bathroom floor 5 years back, but I am not going to let my worldview by dictated by that possibility.

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 06 May 2011 11:24

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ...

Clearly a conspiracy.

You see, it's in their best interests to do that because ... um ... hang on a minute ... because ... ahem ...

Oh, fuck it — I gots nothing. Maybe KoKo will clarify this for us.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 06 May 2011 13:19

Everyone's in on it but you. :shock:
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 06 May 2011 17:20

TheDukester wrote:
Kojiro wrote:4) Lt. Col. Oliver L. North certain of Osama’s death ...

Oh, well if Ollie North says it's true ...


Right, like that's the only source on that list. :roll:


Lundse wrote:
Kojiro wrote:You find some evidence that they killed Osama when Obama said they did. Dead people with squirt guns don't count.


Oh no. You are the one claiming he was already dead, and therefore my arguments are invalid. You made a claim, you prove it. That's how this works.


No, Obama made the claim that he had Osama killed. He has to prove that. That's how it really works.

Kojiro wrote:The whole GOP thing needed a scary monster like Osama bin Laden out to get us to justify their war.


And, according to you, they were fine with handing the apparently easy-to-play card of "we just got Bin Laden" over to the Democrats. Why was that again? McCain could not have used some time on the podium with Bush, while the news of Osama's death played over and over again, during the election?
Why, for the love of god, would they hand this over to the opposition?


Then they'd have to explain their end and also implicate themselves in the lie. "Uh... Osama is lying because we uh... also lied about this and...." "Say wut?" It would not only destroy Obama's credibility but their own. Yeah. Brilliant. :clap:

Kojiro wrote:What sounds like a fairy tale is Osama bin Laden hanging out in damp caves, risking infection day in and day out, while he has failing kidneys without access to dialysis, and diabetes.


See, now you're arguing for him being dead. Great. Unfortunately, you invented the premise of the cave being damp, of him risking infection at all (antibiotics are available elsewhere than America) and that he would have no access to medical health care. Why would a guy with enough money stay away from that? You are making this premise up out of thin air, and consequently, convincing noone.

The damp cave without medical equiptment:
Image


Yeah, okay and now we have to explain when he moved in and how that escaped notice of all the military intelligence bases surrounding that house and also how he was able to purchase the dialysis machine without any records raising flags and how none of his neighbors seemed to catch on and so forth. Seriously, that neighborhood was smackdab in the middle of spy city for chrissake... and they didn't know until now?

Kojiro wrote:
Lundse wrote:With regards to the DNA testing, then just add them to the operational crew that Obama is supposedly betting on will never send an email to wikileaks.

This is assuming it was ever analyzed. We seem to just have Obama's word for that too.


Sigh. I'll explain it one more time. If you are right in everything you say, then:
Either Obama is simply claiming this DNA was tested, no other people were involved with this lie (than were already involved). In this case, any reporter or conspiracy nut could simply ask "What lab?", "What personel?", "Why can't we see the results?" and he looks immediately suspicious. This would be stupid, and if reporting has not already proven that this was not the case, it will shortly.
Or, someone is lying with Obama on this - more people to add to the huge pile you claim are all in on this, all unflinchingly loyal, and none of whom has made a single mistake tripping up their huge, coordinated story.

See how this works? We assume you are right, and then we see how insane that world in which you are right has to be...


It's a wee bit surprising how no one seems to really be investigating the DNA angle. All I can find are articles like this with no lab names given.,

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/158 ... a-bin.html
http://www.fastcompany.com/1751030/how- ... aden-works

Can you find Mr. bin Laden's DNA?

So far it's "It's his DNA because the gub'ment sed so."

This is becoming a treasure trove of logical fallacies:
Kojiro wrote:Continued position of power or jobless...

False dilemma! That is not the two options they have. I specifically pointed out the option of going to the press, for instance. One could also threaten to go to the press, if fired. Also, "jobless"! Really? These people would be under a bridge in DC, begging for change? You seem to have invented these two options out of the same cloth as Bin Laden's financial position and living conditions. Your premises are created after your conclusion - never a good sign...


And no one talked during the WMD fiasco why? Granting that you're right about the false choice, you have failed to answer why none of Bush's people spoke up about the WMD lie.

You offer the following arguments, why Bin Laden must be dead:

- No sign of life from him for ten years.
- Not surprising, we know he was hiding.


So, wait... let me get this straight... with all of the technology we have today to monitor communication, not once did a red flag raise up until now? Are you freaking kidding me?

- Comments from government officials that they were becoming certain that he might be dead.
- Speculation. And if your own theory is true, you are saying the same government who wants him alive in people's mind as a bogeymand, and who might need him for a quick fix in public opinion is at the same time telling us he might be dead already. WTF?


Take a look at that list.... how many were on Bush's cabinet? Hell, a few of the sources were French intelligence. Are you implying that I'm trying to say the zombie Osama conspiracy spans that far? If you are, then you'd definitely be putting words in my mouth.

None of these hold up, as you can see.


Says you.

The WMD lie was more a case of trusting the bad intelligence and ignoring the good - here, they could point back and say "whoops". If this comes to a legal or congressional hearing, they are really, really, going to need the DNA and photo evidence of the body, which they claim to have created themselves. There is absolutely no hiding from being told to show congress a video you said you made yourself, as opposed to having to admit the intelligence was more shaken than one assumed.
The WMD's were a lie, in that they made the public believe it, while knowing better. But they did not lie about anything that could be traced directly to them. You would have us believe Obama, the military, CIA and everyone else involved are betting their jobs, reputations, and a huge jail sentence, if not death for high treason, on something which any one of them could initiate a trial over tomorrow. If, that is, anyone suspects any wrongdoing. Of course they are not claiming to have video evidence unless they have it. NASA didn't claim to put mirrors on the moon, if they had not actually done so, either...


Well, people are starting to really call Obama on it. Let's see how long the house of cards lasts.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nation ... 7272.story
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 0263.shtml

PS: I am not asking you to prove a negative.


Really? Because that's what it looks like.

PPS: That guy on the ground, with the squirt gun. Where did you get that picture? Did someone claim that was Bin Laden? Did Osama? Anyone official? Are you saying that because some random nutjob on the net thinks that is Bin Laden, Osama is lying? Are you saying that because someone else used that picture as an attempt at evidence, everyone must be wrong about the case he was trying to prove? I really have no clue why you were including it... Can I support my case, by showing a picture of a deathly ill diabetes patient that someone claims is Bin Laden just about to die 10 years ago, as proof that your claims are wrong?


That was one of the Reuters photos. Allegedly he was a terrorist guarding bin Laden. Yeah, that water pistol looks very dangerous indeed. The SEALs must have been recruited from the NYPD.

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.


I never put much stock into those alleged audio tapes of bin Laden. They all come out of SITE and never anywhere else.
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