We got bin Laden!

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Kojiro
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 04 May 2011 01:59

Hunchback Jack wrote:
Kojiro wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
Well, don't you find it odd that they're still trying to get the details of their story right? That they conveniently dumped the body at sea instead of giving him a proper Muslim burial (at this point it might as well have been a ham sandwich they dumped in the words of Alex Jones)? That they're delaying release of this so-called photo/footage that allegedly proves that he was killed by them?


The problem


The only problem is that no one ever investigates anymore, especially the journalists. They just happily report what the government said and don't go any deeper.


No argument here. But the lack of investigation by the media doesn't give any more credence to a conspiracy theory.


So where's Osama's body? That'll prove ev—Oh right... at the bottom of the ocean. Can't use that. And where's the picture of him getting shot in the head (barring that it might be Photoshopped anyway)? Oh. Too gorey. Okay. Whatever. I'll just go back to watching the JFK assissination and watch Jack's head pop open over and over and pretend its Osama.

There's no evidence, dude. All we have is a story from Obama.
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TheDukester
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 04 May 2011 02:14

Kojiro wrote:The only problem is that no one ever investigates anymore, especially the journalists.

As if you'd know, junior.

Speaking as someone with 22 years' of journalism experience, I'm going to remind you of something you should already know: you don't have the slightest fucking idea of what you're talking about regarding this subject. Not a damn clue. You are speaking directly out of your asshole here, which, as I think we're all aware of, is pretty much your SOP.

And, to state the perfectly obvious, it's not journalism's fault that you're a fucking wingnut conspiracy theorist. That's your problem, bro.

Free advice: turn off the computer. Go outside every once in a while. Get some fresh air; maybe take in a ballgame or something. Try actually interacting with other humans in a social capacity. Hell, talk to a girl or two if you're feeling up to it.

But do something. Because if you keep this up, the squirrels are going to bury your head.
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Hunchback Jack
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Hunchback Jack » 04 May 2011 02:24

Again, this sort of reasoning is common among conspiracy theorists, and is, by and large, not compelling as it does not address the key issues with or support the key claims of the conspiracy theory itself.

It's also arguing backwards from the conclusion you already have. They no longer have the body. There could be all sorts of reasons for this, including those stated. But the fact that they now cannot produce the body at your request is not evidence of a conspiracy. They can't produce it because they no longer have it, period.

(I must admit my patience with this discussion is pretty much at an end. I've tried to be clear and civil, while you've become increasingly irrational and hostile. I'd prefer we ended it here rather than get too emotionally invested in our positions)

HBJ
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Kojiro
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 04 May 2011 02:25

Are you implying that stories without evidence are fact, Duke? There's no body, no pictures, no nothing, and all I see is the media blindly going with it. Hell, at least Aljazeera seems to have checked it out by interviewing Osama's alleged neighbors and all they pretty much add up to is "WTF? We never saw him/never knew." But yeah, whoo-hoo.... call me a nut much like KJA calls us Talifans and the Church called people heretics, all because I dare to question Obama's re-election publicity stunt extravaganza.

22 years, eh? You need to go back to school then.
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Hunchback Jack
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Hunchback Jack » 04 May 2011 03:00

Hunchback Jack wrote:
Kojiro wrote:The only problem is that no one ever investigates anymore, especially the journalists. They just happily report what the government said and don't go any deeper.


No argument here. But the lack of investigation by the media doesn't give any more credence to a conspiracy theory.


Sorry, Dukester. I conceded this point too quickly in order to make my own. I shouldn't have.

I freely admit I don't know what I'm talking about on this topic, either :).

HBJ
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I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
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TheDukester
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 04 May 2011 03:12

No worries. It's not like it's a profession full of perfect people who do no wrong.

In fact, I sincerely hope some of my brethren do some digging in the next few weeks to get as behind the scenes as possible. I'm sure mistakes were made, just as I'm sure there were probably some real acts of heroism in the whole affair. It should make for fascinating reading.

What is not there, though, is a conspiracy. It simply doesn't exist, and airlifting 10,000 reporters into the area wouldn't change that.

The man is dead; the good guys killed him. Full stop. Period. End of story.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby E. LeGuille » 04 May 2011 03:13

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence... [t]here are known knowns, and there are known unknowns, but there are unknown unknowns. Things that we don't know that we don't know."

EDIT: For sake of not making a double-post, I'd like to add that there is VERY GOOD reason to not release the photo of his death.

FIRSTLY: The Middle East is on FIRE right now. A photo release, confirming death, and signifying the martyrdom of their Afghan father -- the leader of the Mujahideen who helped the CIA push out the Soviets -- and then religious icon of the Jihadist ideology... it will turn the entire region into a conflagration. And they are not ready for it. No one is.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby SandChigger » 04 May 2011 04:14

Kojiro, I just want to splash in here and point out that my good friend Marilyn Martin over on Amazon ALWAYS has things to say about the American media that sound a lot like what you're posting here.

That should be cause enough for concern. ;)

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 04 May 2011 06:13

Kojiro wrote:There's no evidence, dude. All we have is a story from Obama.


True, but misleading.

If the story is not true, then the following must be (this is how you deconstruct conspiracy theories, try it with the moon landing or the JFK assasination, and see what mind-boggling stuff you have to assume for your theory to be true):

- Obama is lying, about something which he knows can be easily disproven by one of his worst enemies, by way of a simple videotape and a copy of todays paper. (So you either have to assume Bin Laden is non-existent, or allied with Obama).

- Obama is lying, about something which hundreds of patriotic soldiers (roughly half of which did not vote for him) can easily disprove. Air crew, control tower crew, logistics, intelligence officers without the harddisks they claim they have, burial crew including a Muslim preacher - everyone of these persons are lying, or willing to cover up the lie. Not one of them able to send a simple email to wikileaks...

- Since Obama claims to have DNA evidence, which matches with a known sister, he must have arranged for another persons DNA with the same match. And that person must also be someone not interested in calling Obama's bluff.

- Obama is further betting that he will never need the phtotographic evidence he claims to have. Not for diplomatic, military or legal use.

- Every one of his advisors, who was allegedly part of the many meetings up to the operation, are also lying and equally willing to bet their not-entirely-negligible careers and reputations.


Or, a terrorist was found using HUMINT, and subsequently killed. Which is more likely?

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2011 09:13

Osama and UBL are the same person?
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby lotek » 04 May 2011 10:39

SandChigger wrote:Kojiro, I just want to splash in here and point out that my good friend Marilyn Martin over on Amazon ALWAYS has things to say about the American media that sound a lot like what you're posting here.

That should be cause enough for concern. ;)


how's It doing btw ? still ranting at the internet worldwide troll they call, with a mixture of awe and revulsion, The Chig' ?

Freakzilla wrote:Osama and UBL are the same person?


of course they are, haven't you seen Fox40 ?
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2011 12:06

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2011 12:08

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TheDukester
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 04 May 2011 12:11

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 May 2011 12:51

Kojiro wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Ok kiddo, time for bed.


Well then, I guess we really are Talifans that don't appreciate the numbers of books KJA writes. Go ahead, believe the Official Doctrine as dictated by the government, because governments never lie. Neither do churches or corporations. In fact, lying doesn't exist. It's just a fiction. Everyone tells the truth, even if they don't have evidence because it's all true anyway.


You just don't understand it man - I'm not saying there aren't coverups and serious problems, even that there isn't a coverup going on here (maybe there is, maybe it's the one you think it is, maybe it's something totally different).

I'm saying that you take very polite posts from someone like Hunchback and you just let loose like someone with FAS induced rage problems on him. People are trying to have a polite debate with you and all you do is flip out and behave like a 3 year old.

You need to learn that you're not the only smart person in the world and that people with opinions other than yours are not always attacking you.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2011 14:30

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Kojiro
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 04 May 2011 18:25

Lundse wrote:
Kojiro wrote:There's no evidence, dude. All we have is a story from Obama.


True, but misleading.

If the story is not true, then the following must be (this is how you deconstruct conspiracy theories, try it with the moon landing or the JFK assasination, and see what mind-boggling stuff you have to assume for your theory to be true):

- Obama is lying, about something which he knows can be easily disproven by one of his worst enemies, by way of a simple videotape and a copy of todays paper. (So you either have to assume Bin Laden is non-existent, or allied with Obama).


Osama's been dead for ten years. There's been no sign of life from him since 2002 and he had failing kidneys and diabetes while living in a damp cave. Do the math, please.

- Obama is lying, about something which hundreds of patriotic soldiers (roughly half of which did not vote for him) can easily disprove. Air crew, control tower crew, logistics, intelligence officers without the harddisks they claim they have, burial crew including a Muslim preacher - everyone of these persons are lying, or willing to cover up the lie. Not one of them able to send a simple email to wikileaks...


Assuming they didn't have his corpse on ice and his stuff all along from the Bush years, just waiting for the appropriate political moment like Madeleine friggin' Albright and other officials (both current and former) had been suggesting for years now. Or are they nuts too?

Obama needs a better approval rating and reelection, viola... instant Obama dead story. Files instantly released to military intelligence. It's not hard to "recover" something you've already had.

And furthermore, have you interviewed all of these soldiers you speak of? Military operates on a need-to-know basis... if they're just handed something and told it came from somewhere, they're not suppose to question and instead follow orders. For an example of this, look at the Osama assassination story itself. Allegedly the SEALs and the Pakistani authorities didn't know they were going after bin Laden. It's just how the military operates.

- Since Obama claims to have DNA evidence, which matches with a known sister, he must have arranged for another persons DNA with the same match. And that person must also be someone not interested in calling Obama's bluff.


Yeah, who did the DNA testing? And where is the DNA itself to start with? Can this get independent review or is that a matter of "national security" too?

- Obama is further betting that he will never need the phtotographic evidence he claims to have. Not for diplomatic, military or legal use.


Much like KJA and BH don't think we ever need to see the "notes."

- Every one of his advisors, who was allegedly part of the many meetings up to the operation, are also lying and equally willing to bet their not-entirely-negligible careers and reputations.


Well clearly, if they want to remain his advisors.....

Or, a terrorist was found using HUMINT, and subsequently killed. Which is more likely?


They might've killed someone, but I'm doubting it was zombie Osama, risen from the grave for the umpteenth time.

Concerning being the only intelligent person in the world, I'm starting to feel like it around here. I find it appalling that people can just take the government's word for something without any proof. I require evidence before I accept something as fact. I doubt anyone would believe me if I just randomly claimed that I single-handedly broke up a drug deal or rescued an orphan from a fire without anything to back it up. So why should the government get a free pass when it doesn't supply evidence for its claims? Remember the alleged WMDs in Iraq? How'd that turn out? There were a bunch of intelligence guys involved there too, but it was still crap.

And we're apparently never going to see photos, conveniently given the "national security" excuse. As if terrorists everywhere haven't already threatened us.

Oh, but something "leaked."

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Nice squirt gun. Not bin Laden though.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Robspierre » 04 May 2011 21:07

‎"Dear Westboro Baptist Church,

We have a funeral you can protest. It's in Pakistan. We'll help you pack...
Sincerely,
America"

Rob

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby SandChigger » 04 May 2011 22:02

:lol:

(This is the last time I'm bothering with this turd. Have fun! :D )

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby TheDukester » 04 May 2011 22:21

Kojiro wrote:I find it appalling that people can just take the government's word for something without any proof.

Much like we find it appalling to have to share space with a conspiracy-obsessed wingnut who would rather construct elaborate, logic-free fantasies rather than acknowledge some simple, observable facts.

Take your bullshit somewhere else, sport. The adults are trying to talk here.
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Kojiro » 04 May 2011 22:35

TheDukester wrote:
Kojiro wrote:I find it appalling that people can just take the government's word for something without any proof.

Much like we find it appalling to have to share space with a conspiracy-obsessed wingnut who would rather construct elaborate, logic-free fantasies rather than acknowledge some simple, observable facts.


And what facts are those? No pictures. No body. No testimony from neighbors that bin Laden even lived there. Yeah, that totally proves Obama's being truthful. :roll:
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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Eyes High » 04 May 2011 23:18

Give it a rest already. You believe one thing, others believe something else, and still others believe something totally different of either just don't give a hoot.

Hunchback has been the cool headed voice of reason here (like he usually is) and even he has said enough already.

Yes governments lie, manipulate, and cover up. Media has its own agenda and there are still hacks out there in every genre. But that does not mean that we should :beat dead horse:

I think we understand each other's position on this issue.

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Lundse » 05 May 2011 03:55

OK. I didn't know your conspiracy ran this deep. Now, before we go any further, how about this:

- You find some evidence that Osama has been dead all these years!

And before you do, please stop with the "do the math, please"-snide comments. Even if you are right and he was, your opinion is not based on solid evidence, but conjecture and assumptions.

Your argument that "Obama needs a better approval rating and reelection..." is fine, except for one simple fact - it could be said about any president, any day in office since 9/11. Why didn't Bush do this to secure the Republican base around a self-proclaimed war-time president? Why not do it, just so that Obama could not later, should he win? Your conspiracy theory amounts to saying the Bush administration were incapable or unwilling to do what Obama just did (according to you) - sounds like a fairy tale to me...

With regards to the DNA testing, then just add them to the operational crew that Obama is supposedly betting on will never send an email to wikileaks.

If you think the photo evidence is in any way parallel to the alledged notes, then you misunderstood my argument. KJA will never need the notes. Obama might. And according to you, is betting everything that he will not. And that noone with a legitimate intelligence reason to see it will never cry foul either. How many people are in on this, now?

Oh, all his advisors too. Because they are afraid to get fired. Really?
"Mr. President, I object to deceiving the American public, and I won't let you do this. I'll go public if I have to".
"Oh, yeah. Then you'll be fired!"
"Oh, never mind then".
So no, you are still assuming they are all in on it and OK with it. And that Obama is not afraid any one of them will ever want to publish a book after their days in office...

But it seems you are pretty set in your belief that Osama was dead already, so there is really no reason to argue anything else, is there? If that is indeed your major hickup here, then dealing with it is quite easy. You are the one making a claim. You should be arguing for it, instead of shooting down everyone arguing that Osama was just killed with "impossible!". So let's hear it - the reason you cannot be dissuaded that Osama has been dead for a long time.


Oh, and stop painting everyone who disagrees with you as "accepting everything the government says". Apart from making you sound childish, it is a strawman and factually wrong. I accept the moon landing as fact, because somewhere close to a million people would have to be in on it, if it were fake. Not likely! I accept this claim because faking it would be absurdly hard and risky. I told you so directly, in fact, and you still claim that I "just believe whatever". I have told you my reasons, now tell me yours - why must Osama be long dead?

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 05 May 2011 09:04

Watch out for the stealth helicopters...

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Re: We got bin Laden!

Postby Freakzilla » 05 May 2011 10:32

Bin Laden drink special this week: Two shots and a splash of water
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