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    Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 16:31

    Take 12 paces, turn and fire...
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 16:43

    Spice Must Fow wrote:Things get worse no matter what party gets in. THis is a damned if you do, damned if youd don't scenario. Continuing to print money will lead to hyperinflation, stopping will lead to deflationary depression. WE FREMEN KNOW HOW TO CHOOSE BETWEEN EVILS. Deflation will be a cold cold winter, but hyperinflation will be a blistering summer that will lead to violence.

    Really this topic should evolve into a thread where we could discuss the federal reserve and its tinkering with interest rates and such, and Austrian verses Keynsian economics and the Austrian business cycle, and why we have market crahses. I don't know if you want to do that or not, but if you start the topic I'll be willing to discuss it there. I think framing it Republican verses Democrat completely misses what's going on.


    Exactly! which is why they choose communism. :D You might want to go stand by the Harkonnens. I'll stay over here with the Atreides and the people.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 16:45

    FIat Currency always collapses.
    http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 16:48

    Crysknife wrote:
    Exactly! which is why they choose communism. :D You might want to go stand by the Harkonnens. I'll stay over here with the Atreides and the people.


    Harkonnens use government to gain wealth! I don't stand with them! :mad:

    And those Atreides didn't need their propoganda corps for nothing!
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 18:09

    Freakzilla wrote:[quote="Spice Must Flow
    I think framing it Republican verses Democrat completely misses what's going on.


    Harumph!


    You made economics a subset of politics? We already disagree. I understand now why you're skeptical!

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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 18:46

    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:
    Exactly! which is why they choose communism. :D You might want to go stand by the Harkonnens. I'll stay over here with the Atreides and the people.


    Harkonnens use government to gain wealth! I don't stand with them! :mad:

    And those Atreides didn't need their propoganda corps for nothing!


    Wow, every govt. has a hand in wealth creation. The Harkonnens went massively in debt to fund the invasion of House Atreides.......ring a bell?

    I disagree that it isn't a Rep vs. Dem thing. There are clear lines on philosophy between the two. Is every Dem perfect? Hell no. Is every Rep a bastard? Nope. But for the most part Dems ARE perfect and Reps ARE bastards. See?

    Just do one thing for me, in layman's terms, without sending me to outside links, tell me how the debt will be the death of us and continuing with failed Republican economic policies will help anyone? Corporations would like us to live on a bag of rice and a chicken a week so they can pay us less to make their products or man their information. They tell us this every day when they ship jobs to countries that live like that. There is one party that stands for those corporations more than the other and would give them even less regulation. I won't stand for it. I won't stand for it for my children. You can continue to vote against your children but not me.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 19:13

    Couldn't we have more regulation with less bureaucracy?

    I think economic ideas ARE divided by party lines but I think a big part of that is BECAUSE of the party lines. You have to remember that these politicians number one priority is to keep their jobs, not our best interest. That means taking a stance against the other guy.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 19:36

    Crysknife wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Wow, every govt. has a hand in wealth creation. The Harkonnens went massively in debt to fund the invasion of House Atreides.......ring a bell?

    I disagree that it isn't a Rep vs. Dem thing. There are clear lines on philosophy between the two. Is every Dem perfect? Hell no. Is every Rep a bastard? Nope. But for the most part Dems ARE perfect and Reps ARE bastards. See?

    Just do one thing for me, in layman's terms, without sending me to outside links, tell me how the debt will be the death of us and continuing with failed Republican economic policies will help anyone? Corporations would like us to live on a bag of rice and a chicken a week so they can pay us less to make their products or man their information. They tell us this every day when they ship jobs to countries that live like that. There is one party that stands for those corporations more than the other and would give them even less regulation. I won't stand for it. I won't stand for it for my children. You can continue to vote against your children but not me.


    Simply put - fiat currency is a currency based on nothing in the real world - it's only worth something because the government tells you it is worth something. A dollar represented as a piece of paper is ultimately worth that - a piece of paper. When governments print massive amounts of money, there are more pieces of paper, and they are worth less. More dollars chasing the same amount of goods = prices go up. Goverments always print more money because it makes the economy "feel" better and the populace happier. But it is an illusion that eventually gets exposed, because it is based on debt. Short term IT WORKS! In the end it always fails (examples in the link if you don't buy it). This has happened throughout history time and time again. A gold standard prevents this because gold can't be printed, and a dollar would represent a set share of gold. It doesn't have to be gold, but that is the historical choice, and it has to be something. (US went off the gold standard in 1971) In DUNE it's spice.

    Compare it to if you lost your income, but had a credit card. You could maintain your lifestyle, and from the outside things would look the same. But in truth what you are doing is unsustainable, and in the long run it would have been much better had you lowered your lifestyle when you had choices, because when the credit card runs out, you don't have choices, only desperation. That's IMO where we are headed - fast!

    Democrats want to spend more. Republicans are talking the talk, but I don't believe them, and if the past is any indicator they will spend too - and if they don't, they will proabably be thrown out of office because the mainstream media is not telling you this. Social programs are really a separate issue from all this - you can argue for the programs you want, but you MUST pay for them. Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for social programs today, or wars, or whatever, is doomed to failure. A currency crisis would truly be a disaster. :shock:

    Does this make sense to you? I know it's annoying for me to throw out links, but the article is short and it is very good and explains it better than I could with real historical examples. if you really want to understand you should read it. If you want to argue against it, that's fine too.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 19:50

    Freakzilla wrote:Couldn't we have more regulation with less bureaucracy?

    I think economic ideas ARE divided by party lines but I think a big part of that is BECAUSE of the party lines. You have to remember that these politicians number one priority is to keep their jobs, not our best interest. That means taking a stance against the other guy.


    Banking is the most regulated industry in America. The problem isn't not enough regulations. The problem is government intervening. The market will automatically regulate things - we had a housing crisis because the government wanted to make it easier for people to get into homes. (both parties) It worked - housing boomed. Construction boomed and increased unaturally to keep up with the increased demand. The boom is followed by the bust. We STILL have a housing crisis because the government is working to prop housing prices up. THe market should determine house prices - and if supply is greater than demand, house prices go down. WHich would mean....(drum roll) it would be easier for people to get into houses.

    Sure there are ideological differences between parties, and they should be discussed. But seriously, both parites voted to bail out the banks. Goldman Saches was Obama's biggest campaign contributer - they're not stupid. Anyone think democrats are tough on banks? The free market would have wiped those banks off the face of the earth! Our politicians gave them our money! WHen I say free market, I'm not talking about the Republicans, they don't stand for a free market! (but Ron Paul does :D - Why do you think there is so much corporate controlled media bias against him? but i digress into politics)
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 20:18

    Banking is the most regulated industry in America. The problem isn't not enough regulations. The problem is government intervening. The market will automatically regulate things - we had a housing crisis because the government wanted to make it easier for people to get into homes. (both parties) It worked - housing boomed. Construction boomed and increased unaturally to keep up with the increased demand. The boom is followed by the bust. We STILL have a housing crisis because the government is working to prop housing prices up. THe market should determine house prices - and if supply is greater than demand, house prices go down. WHich would mean....(drum roll) it would be easier for people to get into houses.



    Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet. The govt. can't force a bank to give joe shmo off the street a loan. They gave loans to anyone who wanted one because they had a way out. They bundled up the loans and sold them to investors.....they were out of the game. If you want to blame something blame the cutting of regulations and lack of oversite.

    The govt. is working to cushion the blow, which is their role. They did the same thing for GM and they are doing great. This "let em burn" mentality is freaking insane. Romney wants everyone to forclose so the wealthy can swoop in and buy the properties at a discount and once again the rich get richer. God forbid Obama do anything to help struggling families.

    There is no such thing as a free market. The nation and govt. don't exist because of the corporations, the corporations exist because of the nation and govt. Nixon knew the gold standard was crap. How can you multiply wealth when you can't multiply the gold? Spice was not money in Dune just like gold is not money in America. Doesn't mean they have no value. the real drivers of economics, it's underlying base is food and clean water. You can have all the gold in the world but if you don't have a morsel to eat you're screwed. Everything else we dink around with as far as products and services is just for fun. Feed the poor and middle class in every sense, and you have the recipe for a great nation. even the rich will benefit. You don't feed those that already have everything and expect good things.

    BTW, I don't want the gold rich countries of the world holding that hostage and telling us what to do, just like I wouldn't want the oil rich countries telling us what to do. It makes no sense to base your economics on something just because it's rare. Care to point out a good example of a successful country that uses this method?
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 20:32

    Spice Must Flow wrote:(... but i digress into politics)


    Umm, you're in the Politics Forum. :wink:
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 20:33

    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet.


    I'm living proof that's bullshit.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 20:35

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet.


    I'm living proof that's bullshit.


    Not sure I understand....are you saying the govt. told a bank to give you a loan? Or are you saying I'm right?
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 20:59

    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet. The govt. can't force a bank to give joe shmo off the street a loan. They gave loans to anyone who wanted one because they had a way out. They bundled up the loans and sold them to investors.....they were out of the game. If you want to blame something blame the cutting of regulations and lack of oversite.

    Out of the game? WHAT? Who do you think owns the houses, the people? How many people do you know who don't have a mortgage on their home? THE BANKS own almost ALL the houses! Do you think they are propping up housing for the people's sake? Please think about it! If it was a safe bet, it's because the GOVERNMENT will bail them out - otherwise they WOULD care who they gave loans to! The FED, which IS NOT government, but private, controls the interest rate - they made if artifically low! Do you remember Bush on TV talking about the "ownership society." If the banks were "out of the game" why did they need to be bailed out? You are correct in thinking you are getting raped, but you are confused about which hole is being violated!

    Crysknife wrote:The govt. is working to cushion the blow, which is their role. They did the same thing for GM and they are doing great. This "let em burn" mentality is freaking insane. Romney wants everyone to forclose so the wealthy can swoop in and buy the properties at a discount and once again the rich get richer. God forbid Obama do anything to help struggling families..

    Cushioning for who? You think helping people stay in homes they can't afford is helping the struggling families? It's taking taxpayer money and helping the banks!

    Crysknife wrote:There is no such thing as a free market. The nation and govt. don't exist because of the corporations, the corporations exist because of the nation and govt. Nixon knew the gold standard was crap. How can you multiply wealth when you can't multiply the gold? Spice was not money in Dune just like gold is not money in America. Doesn't mean they have no value. the real drivers of economics, it's underlying base is food and clean water. You can have all the gold in the world but if you don't have a morsel to eat you're screwed. Everything else we dink around with as far as products and services is just for fun. Feed the poor and middle class in every sense, and you have the recipe for a great nation. even the rich will benefit. You don't feed those that already have everything and expect good things..


    Nation, govt, and corporations all exist because of individuals - don't forget that!

    OK - you don't understand currencies and relative value here when you talk about multiplying wealth. You can print enough money to give everyone in American a million dollars. Do you think everyone would then live like millionairs do today? Gold can go up and down in value - but it should be market driven! You think "the rich" will take advantage of this? A physical ounce of gold can't be manipulated, but the abstract dollar can. Your dollar wealth is being stolen right now as we speak, and you don't understand it. Gold and silver are honest money - harder to steal. Hey - "what you fear is not what you fear"

    Food is going to be an issue - but if you give everyone food, do you think everyone will work as hard for non-necessities?
    I could go down my neighborhood alley and feed myelf well off what others have thrown away in trash cans in America. There's not alot of people starving here. It's because we have a freer market than other countries - the freer the market, the less poverty.
    Foods going up though - I hope you've noticed, and there are reasons for that - and it's not because of a free market, that's for damn sure!
    Crysknife wrote:BTW, I don't want the gold rich countries of the world holding that hostage and telling us what to do.

    OK - base your currency on a basket of commodies then. There are different plans out there - but get off the fiat!
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 21:00

    Crysknife wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet.


    I'm living proof that's bullshit.


    Not sure I understand....are you saying the govt. told a bank to give you a loan? Or are you saying I'm right?


    That sounds like a trick question. :P

    I'm saying that the government made it SO easy to get a home loan that anyone who could just BARELY afford it (me) could get in over their head in a house that was actually more than they could afford.

    The banks didn't care, this country lives on debt.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 21:29

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet.


    I'm living proof that's bullshit.


    Not sure I understand....are you saying the govt. told a bank to give you a loan? Or are you saying I'm right?


    That sounds like a trick question. :P

    I'm saying that the government made it SO easy to get a home loan that anyone who could just BARELY afford it (me) could get in over their head in a house that was actually more than they could afford.

    The banks didn't care, this country lives on debt.


    So you are blaming yourself. That's fine but the bank didn't HAVE to give you that loan. They had other reasons. One is to take your money, wait for you to forclose, and do it again with a house that should have gained value or stayed the same. 20 or 30 years ago they wouldn't have given it to you. I don't think the govt. had much to do with it, other than lack of oversite. and let's not forget it was a Republican president that bailed them out.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 21:34

    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Simply not true. I don't care who tells bankers or lenders to get people into homes, they're not going to do it unless they know it's a safe bet. The govt. can't force a bank to give joe shmo off the street a loan. They gave loans to anyone who wanted one because they had a way out. They bundled up the loans and sold them to investors.....they were out of the game. If you want to blame something blame the cutting of regulations and lack of oversite.

    Out of the game? WHAT? Who do you think owns the houses, the people? How many people do you know who don't have a mortgage on their home? THE BANKS own almost ALL the houses! Do you think they are propping up housing for the people's sake? Please think about it! If it was a safe bet, it's because the GOVERNMENT will bail them out - otherwise they WOULD care who they gave loans to! The FED, which IS NOT government, but private, controls the interest rate - they made if artifically low! Do you remember Bush on TV talking about the "ownership society." If the banks were "out of the game" why did they need to be bailed out? You are correct in thinking you are getting raped, but you are confused about which hole is being violated!

    Crysknife wrote:The govt. is working to cushion the blow, which is their role. They did the same thing for GM and they are doing great. This "let em burn" mentality is freaking insane. Romney wants everyone to forclose so the wealthy can swoop in and buy the properties at a discount and once again the rich get richer. God forbid Obama do anything to help struggling families..

    Cushioning for who? You think helping people stay in homes they can't afford is helping the struggling families? It's taking taxpayer money and helping the banks!

    Crysknife wrote:There is no such thing as a free market. The nation and govt. don't exist because of the corporations, the corporations exist because of the nation and govt. Nixon knew the gold standard was crap. How can you multiply wealth when you can't multiply the gold? Spice was not money in Dune just like gold is not money in America. Doesn't mean they have no value. the real drivers of economics, it's underlying base is food and clean water. You can have all the gold in the world but if you don't have a morsel to eat you're screwed. Everything else we dink around with as far as products and services is just for fun. Feed the poor and middle class in every sense, and you have the recipe for a great nation. even the rich will benefit. You don't feed those that already have everything and expect good things..


    Nation, govt, and corporations all exist because of individuals - don't forget that!

    OK - you don't understand currencies and relative value here when you talk about multiplying wealth. You can print enough money to give everyone in American a million dollars. Do you think everyone would then live like millionairs do today? Gold can go up and down in value - but it should be market driven! You think "the rich" will take advantage of this? A physical ounce of gold can't be manipulated, but the abstract dollar can. Your dollar wealth is being stolen right now as we speak, and you don't understand it. Gold and silver are honest money - harder to steal. Hey - "what you fear is not what you fear"

    Food is going to be an issue - but if you give everyone food, do you think everyone will work as hard for non-necessities?
    I could go down my neighborhood alley and feed myelf well off what others have thrown away in trash cans in America. There's not alot of people starving here. It's because we have a freer market than other countries - the freer the market, the less poverty.
    Foods going up though - I hope you've noticed, and there are reasons for that - and it's not because of a free market, that's for damn sure!
    Crysknife wrote:BTW, I don't want the gold rich countries of the world holding that hostage and telling us what to do.

    OK - base your currency on a basket of commodies then. There are different plans out there - but get off the fiat!


    Utter tripe. Somalia has a great free market. No government anywhere. It's great, you should try it sometime in the summer. And this bullshit about if you give a person food they won't work hard is garbage. We give rich people stuff all the time so why should THEY work hard to create jobs? Why does it work for the rich but not the poor?

    Look, if you want sick, elderly, and poor people to die of starvation just say it. They are leaches that we should cut off.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 21:39

    Yes, I do blame myself.

    Want to talk about Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac?

    That's not not my fault.

    Clinton and "Affordable Housing"?

    Everyone is to blame for this not just Republicans or Democrats, you know what both really care about.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 21:41

    My grandfather worked two jobs as a janitor and worked them till he was 78. He helped raise us so he was given food stamps. Do you think that made him slack off? This "take away from the poor so they will have incentive" crap is so freaking old.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Dec 2011 21:44

    Freakzilla wrote:Yes, I do blame myself.

    Want to talk about Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac?

    That's not not my fault.

    Clinton and "Affordable Housing"?

    Everyone is to blame for this not just Republicans or Democrats, you know what both really care about.


    I blame myself too, but there was a part of me that got into my house because I thought the bank would never let me in if it wasn't something I could do. Of course I never saw the huge pay cut I was about to get either.....and that wasn't my fault. I told you about the CEO walking away with 65 million, right?
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 21:49

    Yeah...

    I could have afforded my house. If I didn't get laid of and find a new job 55 miles away, if my wife had kept the windows and doors closed, if... I've got a bunch of reasons.

    But the truth was, I couldn't afford it comfortably and account for any emergencies like sickness, job changes, car trouble, etc...

    The truth was I couldn't afford it.

    I tried mortgage adjustment twice and each time they just rolled over what I was behind into the loan and raised my monthly payment.

    All that did was kept foreclosure off for a while.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 Dec 2011 21:52

    There was more to it than that, even before closing... but I'm in too good a mood right now to get depressed about it.

    I have a date tomorrow night.

    :obscene-smokingpimp:
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    Re: Economics

    Postby SandRider » 29 Dec 2011 22:09

    Freakzilla wrote:There was more to it than that, even before closing... but I'm in too good a mood right now to get depressed about it.

    I have a date tomorrow night.

    :obscene-smokingpimp:


    details.
    now.


    (unless it's with your "wife",
    in which case, I don't want
    to hear about it ...)
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 22:15

    Crysknife wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Utter tripe. Somalia has a great free market. No government anywhere. It's great, you should try it sometime in the summer. And this bullshit about if you give a person food they won't work hard is garbage. We give rich people stuff all the time so why should THEY work hard to create jobs? Why does it work for the rich but not the poor?

    Look, if you want sick, elderly, and poor people to die of starvation just say it. They are leaches that we should cut off.


    Compare Somalia with its former self, and then compare it with its peers.

    I not sure why you think I am arguing for giving things to rich people. I most certainly arguing against that. If they're going to work hard to create jobs, they're going to do it to increase their wealth - let them.

    I said nothing about people not working hard, I said "as" hard. I was merely responding to your correct assement that necessities have priorities over luxuries .

    Who wants people to die? I'd proabably disagree with you about social programs, but I think the only thing I've said is that you have to pay for them. Do you disagree with that?
    Spice Must Flow
     
    Posts: 54
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Dec 2011 22:16

    Freakzilla wrote:There was more to it than that, even before closing... but I'm in too good a mood right now to get depressed about it.

    I have a date tomorrow night.

    :obscene-smokingpimp:

    Not to worry - I think (if I understand correctly) Crysknife wants the government to help you out.
    Spice Must Flow
     
    Posts: 54
    Joined: 28 Dec 2011 18:47

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