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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 31 Dec 2011 18:07

    So when the economy crashes and there is no demand for services then It's GOOD for airlines and banks and auto companies to go under. We don't need no stinkin' govt. to act as a balancing force. Free market all the way, real people be damned.

    But govt. Jobs are always bad. Hard to get rid of a teacher once they've become established. There are only so many kids to teach and after that it's just like digging and filling in the ditch. Damn unions too always greedy. Teachers should be paid 25,000 a year and be happy about it. And less spending per student is the American way. Besides the rich would have to be taxed more to pay for it and why punch a rich person in the face just because he's better than you and a job creator? He worked hard punching in those numbers and making 5 million on a trade.
    There's no such thing as a greedy private corporation. If they want to charge you 8 dollars a gallon for gas then you should thank them for giving you the opportunity. They already make more money than any corporation in history and they pay zero taxes. In fact they get a check of your money instead. Oh and they love to pollute and not pay their fines. The longer you take to pay the fines the more interest you get from that money. Again, why punch rich people?

    I will do this for every corporation if I become president. And why should those corps be burdaned with collecting social security and madicare costs? We'll get rid of that too. Thanks, Ron Paul. Now let's go smoke some weed.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 19:49

    Crysknife wrote:So when the economy crashes and there is no demand for services then It's GOOD for airlines and banks and auto companies to go under. We don't need no stinkin' govt. to act as a balancing force. Free market all the way, real people be damned.

    But govt. Jobs are always bad. Hard to get rid of a teacher once they've become established. There are only so many kids to teach and after that it's just like digging and filling in the ditch. Damn unions too always greedy. Teachers should be paid 25,000 a year and be happy about it. And less spending per student is the American way. Besides the rich would have to be taxed more to pay for it and why punch a rich person in the face just because he's better than you and a job creator? He worked hard punching in those numbers and making 5 million on a trade.
    There's no such thing as a greedy private corporation. If they want to charge you 8 dollars a gallon for gas then you should thank them for giving you the opportunity. They already make more money than any corporation in history and they pay zero taxes. In fact they get a check of your money instead. Oh and they love to pollute and not pay their fines. The longer you take to pay the fines the more interest you get from that money. Again, why punch rich people?

    I will do this for every corporation if I become president. And why should those corps be burdaned with collecting social security and madicare costs? We'll get rid of that too. Thanks, Ron Paul. Now let's go smoke some weed.


    OK - let's smoke some weed and do the sarcasm too!
    All airlines aren't in trouble. Some have a better business models than others, and therefore they are doing much better. That's not fair! Airlines that are in trouble might need to change their strategy. They might have to lower their prices or even (gasp) reduce executive pay to be more competive. But with a little help from their friends in government whose palms have been greeced, they won't have to. Thank you government! If banks go under , how will they pay their employees million dollar bonuses? What about all those poor wall street guys who slaved making those trades, whose looking out for them. Government, that's who! And the auto companies - well, it's just a given what American needs is more cars on the road! Preferably new expensive ones for our corporate friends to drive! Of course, it seems the market has determined that people prefer some types of cars to others, perhaps due to quality, styling or whatever, but why should we expect a corporation to have to compete in the marketplace and produce a better product? Who cares that the corporation rewards all of its employees bigtime with high pay and super health packages even if they are not bringing enough money to pay for it - they deserve it and if the corporation can't pay for it, we taxpayers should. Socialism for the rich baby, fuck the little guys!


    I don't know where you get some of this stuff - not from anything I've written. I have not said anywhere that all government jobs are bad.
    Yes - it's hard to get rid of teachers - bad teachers inlcuded, and administrators. (generally you don't want to get rid of the good teachers, I would think) There's pleny of examples of where more money did not result in better education. I don't think I'd pay $8 a gallon for gas - I think I'd drive down the street to the next gas station. Of course it'd be nice is there was more competition, but government regulations make that difficult. LIbetarian philosophy or Ron Paul sure do not want to send them checks (I'm not sure why you make that point). But it does help to keep gas prices artifically low which keeps more people driving. I think I read somewhere that's bad for the environment. But it is good for the economy, and helps keep the people complacent - . I've heard there's a lot of oil in the Middle East - could that have something to do with our military presense over there?

    From my perspective, your views are the ones helping the rich and helping the corporations. Sure there would be rich people under this philosphy, but they would do it by creating something or providing a service the rest of us want and are willing to pay for - not buy bribing government and sucking it out of the taxpayers.
    "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptable." -Frank Herbert
    Government will always be corruptable is the libertarian view, and the answer is to limit their ability to intervene in the market. No one will lobby or bribe for a service they cannot receive. You don't have to agree, but it's my opinion that you don't understand the philosphy you are critizing. Your tone is completely adversarial with assumptions that aren't correct.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Serkanner » 31 Dec 2011 20:10

    Spice Must Flow wrote:Your tone is completely adversarial with assumptions that aren't correct.


    And yours are? There is no such thing as a free market. Deal with it.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 31 Dec 2011 20:11

    Sure......and no corporation will ever try to fill that power void. They always act in the best interest of the people. Difference is, we get to vote for our govt. Letting businesses go under only adds to the monopoly of those that might be doing better at a certain time. Take Ford for instance....they are not perfect, but they made a move right before the crash that saved them from much of the problems that Chrysler and GM faced. So under your belief ford should have won and picked up the slack. But it doesn't work that way.

    Without govt. To act as a counter balance, we will be governed by the wealthiest corporations much more than we already are. It's not like there can be another GM that can spring from the ground up and start competing with Ford right from the get go. Ford would have failed as well because the suppliers would go under and the whole thing would have collapsed. What you are really advocating for is LESS competition in the market place and more power consolidated at the top. That's the govt. You would trade our's for. Power to the corps.....not power to the people.

    Your way would bring stability eventually, but I prefer to have safety nets in place like the govt. Your way would be like falling off a cliff and calling the end result "stability" no matter what wasteland was left behind.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 31 Dec 2011 20:16

    Much of the loans that the US used to bailout the industries has already been paid back. Balance.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 20:37

    Serkanner wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:Your tone is completely adversarial with assumptions that aren't correct.


    And yours are? There is no such thing as a free market. Deal with it.

    You used to think there was one.
    Crysknife wrote:Utter tripe. Somalia has a great free market.

    Of course there are diffent uses of the term- lets not get bogged down on fighting over definitions. Will "freer" market be acceptable, and will you know what I mean?
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 20:41

    Crysknife wrote:Much of the loans that the US used to bailout the industries has already been paid back. Balance.

    There's some funny accounting going on. I can post you a link if you want, but it's labourous reading and to be honest it goes beyond my level of knowledge exactly how the shenanigans work. Would it shock you if the banks were weasiling out? I would think that would be consistant with your worldview. Perhaps that the government would look the other way is not, though.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Serkanner » 31 Dec 2011 20:53

    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:Your tone is completely adversarial with assumptions that aren't correct.


    And yours are? There is no such thing as a free market. Deal with it.

    You used to think there was one.


    Pardon? I don't understand what you are saying.

    There never have been a free market and there never will be one. It is an utopia, like communism is.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 20:57

    Crysknife wrote:Sure......and no corporation will ever try to fill that power void. They always act in the best interest of the people. Difference is, we get to vote for our govt. Letting businesses go under only adds to the monopoly of those that might be doing better at a certain time. Take Ford for instance....they are not perfect, but they made a move right before the crash that saved them from much of the problems that Chrysler and GM faced. So under your belief ford should have won and picked up the slack. But it doesn't work that way.

    Without govt. To act as a counter balance, we will be governed by the wealthiest corporations much more than we already are. It's not like there can be another GM that can spring from the ground up and start competing with Ford right from the get go. Ford would have failed as well because the suppliers would go under and the whole thing would have collapsed. What you are really advocating for is LESS competition in the market place and more power consolidated at the top. That's the govt. You would trade our's for. Power to the corps.....not power to the people.

    Your way would bring stability eventually, but I prefer to have safety nets in place like the govt. Your way would be like falling off a cliff and calling the end result "stability" no matter what wasteland was left behind.

    Are you suggesting that the corporations are somehow going to take over? They can't do that without government, and I am suggesting that's exactly what they are doing - through government.
    Car companies have sprung up in other parts of the world - American is not the only country that makes cars. I think it probably would be difficult to start one in America, but I have no knowledge about it. I have ideas why that might be so (regulations), but it is not something I looked at.
    I AM NOT advocating less competition. There are plenty of small banks with sound policies that would have loved to compete - but how do you compete with super bank when the government has its back?
    Take a look at this chart: http://www.teiofficecondos.com/storage/ ... rtFull.jpg
    I'm sure you'll interpret it differently than I do, but it would be hard to say that's competition.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 21:06

    Serkanner wrote:
    Pardon? I don't understand what you are saying.

    There never have been a free market and there never will be one. It is an utopia, like communism is.


    I don't believe in utopia either, and I also wouldn't consider a a completely free market do be one.

    WIll this clarify what I mean (particularily last sentence)?
    Investopedia explains 'Free Market'
    In simple terms, a free market is a summary term for an array of exchanges that take place in society. Each exchange is a voluntary agreement between two parties who trade in the form of goods and services. In reality, this is the extent to which a free market exists since there will always be government intervention in the form of taxes, price controls and restrictions that prevent new competitors from entering a market. Just like supply-side economics, free market is a term used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint on policy and is not a field within economics.
    Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fre ... z1iABkCAXy
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 21:20

    Serkanner wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:Your tone is completely adversarial with assumptions that aren't correct.


    And yours are? There is no such thing as a free market. Deal with it.


    Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about your assumptions about YOUR ideology (if I was I'd have been more specific) I was talking about your assumptions about MY ideolgy. Such as (among others)
    Crysknife wrote:Ron Paul ..... would hand even more money to the wealthy while taking everything away from the poor and middle class....all the things that helped get us here. He might torture a few gay people in the streets but I'm still not sure on that one.

    Crysknife wrote: Paul doesn't care about the environment. That's how he will hand everything to the wealthy. He's owned by them as much as any politician.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 31 Dec 2011 21:44

    I wonder if any of those car companies in other countries have had govt. Help getting started and in their efforts to compete with the rest of the world. Actually, I don't have to wonder.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Serkanner » 31 Dec 2011 21:58

    Blah blah blah ... you have no clue what my ideology is because I haven't said anything about it, besides the observation throughout history there never has been free market in any way you describe it.

    I pointed out the word ASSUMPTIONS you have used as a means to downgrade somebody else's ideas when your own ideas about items like economics are also just "guesses"... do not for one second think you know the world buddy, because you don't. You have already proven that beyond a doubt.

    I suggest we talk Dune because that is why we are really here. I distrust your agenda because you stumbled into this site as a Dune fan and wasted your time arguing shite items.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 22:05

    Crysknife wrote:I wonder if any of those car companies in other countries have had govt. Help getting started and in their efforts to compete with the rest of the world. Actually, I don't have to wonder.

    You've got a point on that one.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 31 Dec 2011 22:12

    Serkanner wrote:Blah blah blah ... you have no clue what my ideology is because I haven't said anything about it, besides the observation throughout history there never has been free market in any way you describe it.

    I pointed out the word ASSUMPTIONS you have used as a means to downgrade somebody else's ideas when your own ideas about items like economics are also just "guesses"... do not for one second think you know the world buddy, because you don't. You have already proven that beyond a doubt.

    I suggest we talk Dune because that is why we are really here. I distrust your agenda because you stumbled into this site as a Dune fan and wasted your time arguing shite items.

    Um, I was directing that at Crysknife. I guess I pulled it the quote out of your post because I had it up. If you look, though - I was CLEARLY talking to Crysknife. Sorry for the confusion.
    Did you not see the definition I provided? "free market is a term used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint"
    I already said this was theory in another post. No need to be an asshole!
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Apjak » 03 Jan 2012 14:59

    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Much of the loans that the US used to bailout the industries has already been paid back. Balance.

    There's some funny accounting going on. I can post you a link if you want, but it's labourous reading and to be honest it goes beyond my level of knowledge exactly how the shenanigans work. Would it shock you if the banks were weasiling out? I would think that would be consistant with your worldview. Perhaps that the government would look the other way is not, though.




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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 03 Jan 2012 15:22

    Apjak wrote:
    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Much of the loans that the US used to bailout the industries has already been paid back. Balance.

    There's some funny accounting going on. I can post you a link if you want, but it's labourous reading and to be honest it goes beyond my level of knowledge exactly how the shenanigans work. Would it shock you if the banks were weasiling out? I would think that would be consistant with your worldview. Perhaps that the government would look the other way is not, though.




    Who needs to read anymore.


    So what? So the govt. owns GM and GM paid back the loan part. If GM stock is an asset of the govt. then the money is tied up but it's not exactly just handed over.

    Your point is? The economy would have been worse had we allowed GM to fall. Even under reorganization many thousands(if not millions) of people would have lost their jobs.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Apjak » 03 Jan 2012 20:51

    My point is that the loan payoff explanation does not have to be text heavy or difficult to understand.

    While I think it's a bad idea for the government to subsidize companies that are failing (They could have just given everyone in the US $17,000 checks instead of bailing out insolvent companies) this is a democracy. If Government ownership is what the people want, so be it, but corporations and politicians hiding gifts of taxpayer money and calling it a "loan" that was "paid off" is a ridiculous lie.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 03 Jan 2012 20:55

    Apjak wrote:My point is that the loan payoff explanation does not have to be text heavy or difficult to understand.

    While I think it's a bad idea for the government to subsidize companies that are failing (They could have just given everyone in the US $17,000 checks instead of bailing out insolvent companies) this is a democracy. If Government ownership is what the people want, so be it, but corporations and politicians hiding gifts of taxpayer money and calling it a "loan" that was "paid off" is a ridiculous lie.


    But why were they failing? Wasn't it an extreme circumstance? You don't just let everything fail because the economy crashes. What would we have after? Get my drift? It's not like the typewriter industry.....people will still buy GM cars but they couldn't AT THAT TIME.

    I think you righties take things to the wall a bit too much.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby SandRider » 03 Jan 2012 21:40

    Spice Must Flow wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:Blah blah blah ... you have no clue what my ideology is because I haven't said anything about it, besides the observation throughout history there never has been free market in any way you describe it.

    I pointed out the word ASSUMPTIONS you have used as a means to downgrade somebody else's ideas when your own ideas about items like economics are also just "guesses"... do not for one second think you know the world buddy, because you don't. You have already proven that beyond a doubt.

    I suggest we talk Dune because that is why we are really here. I distrust your agenda because you stumbled into this site as a Dune fan and wasted your time arguing shite items.

    Um, I was directing that at Crysknife. I guess I pulled it the quote out of your post because I had it up. If you look, though - I was CLEARLY talking to Crysknife. Sorry for the confusion.
    Did you not see the definition I provided? "free market is a term used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint"
    I already said this was theory in another post. No need to be an asshole!


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    Re: Economics

    Postby Apjak » 03 Jan 2012 23:51

    Call me a rightie again and I will have my second inform you of my choice of weapons, that being my right as the insulted party.

    Seriously, what the fuck makes you think I'm a conservative.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Crysknife » 04 Jan 2012 00:05

    Ok, fair. What would you call yourself? Any thought to the post other than the rightie remark? But just to be clear, you're a rightie to me because I'm pretty far left.
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jan 2012 00:38

    Don't be ashamed to be right!
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    Re: Economics

    Postby Apjak » 04 Jan 2012 01:35

    I guess you can call me a classical liberal, if we have to buy all of our issues as a package. I prefer to study each problem rather than just agree with an overarching program because I happen to agree with one guy when it come to abortion or something.

    My single largest political stance is an intense skepticism of central power and messianic leaders. I think it's very arrogant for anyone to think they can solve all our problems, and naive to want somebody to. "The people I distrust most are those who want to improve our lives but have only one course of action." If you want other stances, ask instead of assume please.

    But why were they failing?
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/200 ... ptcy_N.htm
    this article overviews a couple of the ways GM shot itself in the foot, but... since you asked that question to set up a rhetorical question.
    Wasn't it an extreme circumstance?
    Depends on where you draw the live "extreme" at, it's subjective. but even if I take it as a given...
    You don't just let everything fail because the economy crashes.
    perhaps, but propping up banks and GM punishes people and companies that didn't fuck up. My 118 year old bank that stayed perfectly solvent through the Great Depression and the Savings and Loan Crisis got a 450% hike in their FDIC premium. I didn't get any of the stock the US Gov. bought in GM, no they're just going to sell it at a multi-billion dollar loss.
    What would we have after?
    I don't know, but that doesn't scare me. I imagine fear-mongers would present evidence of all the jobs that would be lost due to a GM bankruptcy. Better to get them into productive jobs sooner I would think.
    Get my drift? It's not like the typewriter industry.....people will still buy GM cars but they couldn't AT THAT TIME.
    If customers aren't buying something, it's because that something doesn't give them a perceived improvement to their lives. If you aren't selling people things they want NOW, then you need to innovate, not get the Government to enforce the status quo and then use it to boost you PR. If GM had failed it's very possible that some upstart could have taken the pieces and created something that would have been the next great advance in our lives, but yeah, maybe that's just me talking outta my ass, but what the hell this is the Politics forum.
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