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    What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

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    What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 08 Oct 2012 23:46

    Need some theological wisdom of the sietch Jacurutu. The one definition of Socialism I am familiar with from an old school textbook is a system where everything is owned and cared for by the government. Communism and Fascism are considered variants of Socialism, even though Communism in its purely theological state is where the masses own everything, and Fascism really is just draconian totalitarianism that only pretends to be Socialism. Of course, countries who are classified as Communist are not purely Communist in the theological sense, and do operate more as Socialist governments hampered with totalitarianism (it still amazes me that the despotic leaders found it necessary to take care of their people at all, considering their history of amoral ethics). As for Fascism.... well... It claimed it represented the workers, but it was really anti-union. What they meant by saying that they would be taking care of the people, they meant like taking care of troublemakers in the manner of Mob executioners.

    What I understand about purely Socialist countries (not Communist, not Fascist), like say Sweden or Norway, they are usually very expensive to live in. Canada, of course, is the star which I keep hearing about, with Americans still going there for aid.

    Anyway, when the hardest of the hard Rights call Democrats and Neo-Liberals as being Socialist, I keep thinking that the word doesn't mean what they think it means. It's like the Sicilian villian in The Princess Bride exclaiming "inconceivable" over and over again. What do my fellow American citizens think that Socialist means?

    Can the Reverend Fathers of my Sietch explain Socialism to me?
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Naïve mind » 09 Oct 2012 00:53

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:What I understand about purely Socialist countries (not Communist, not Fascist), like say Sweden or Norway, they are usually very expensive to live in. Canada, of course, is the star which I keep hearing about, with Americans still going there for aid.


    I'm on a train, so I don't have the time to offer a complete answer to your question, but neither Sweden, Norway or, to my knowledge, Canada, are Socialist countries. They are Capitalist democracies with government policies inspired by Social Democracy. Whether they are expensive to live in depends on your perspective and income level. In the United States, the Democratic party is the mainstream political movement most likely to push Social Democratic policies. But all but the most libertarian wing of the Republican party could be classified as 'Social Democrat' if you wanted to.

    There is very little authentic 'socialism' these days; only North-Korea can be said to have something like total government control of property.

    Capitalism with some government intervention for the sake of general welfare is the system used by all other countries. Some do so effectively, some are corrupt, some are despotic, some are free, but they're all shades of grey between the black and white of capitalism and socialism.
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 09 Oct 2012 03:23

    THANK YOU, Naive Mind! Thanks for straightening me out, and clarifying some of my mistaken misconceptions. Don't worry about replying in full, I'm still grateful that your reply was thoughtful, informative, and succinct. I agree with you: most countries are shades of gray between the black and white of capitalism and socialism. The political ideologies in America are shades of gray too, but there seems to be a movement of people who believe they can tell the difference, and that the shades of gray are absolute black and white. I just wish we had better education about what our system, and the systems all over the world, are really like.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby lotek » 09 Oct 2012 05:05

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote: most countries are shades of gray between the black and white of capitalism and socialism. The political ideologies in America are shades of gray too, but there seems to be a movement of people who believe they can tell the difference, and that the shades of gray are absolute black and white. I just wish we had better education about what our system, and the systems all over the world, are really like.



    that's a lot of shades of grey.

    As for socialism and Herbert, I guess the closest I can think of is the BG's management of its own planets and the way resources are pooled to take care of everyone (with exceptions for the ones who deserve them, of course)

    Thing is the term "socialism" doesn't have the same meaning everywhere so it's difficult to apply a general label if there isn't a common definition.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2012 09:00

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:theological...

    It's like the Sicilian villian in The Princess Bride exclaiming "inconceivable" over and over again.


    Why do you keep saying that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

    the·ol·o·gy: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Naïve mind » 09 Oct 2012 12:07

    lotek wrote:Thing is the term "socialism" doesn't have the same meaning everywhere so it's difficult to apply a general label if there isn't a common definition.


    I'm sorry, but while you can say this about words like "left-wing" and "right-wing", "conservative" and the infamously muddled "liberal", but I think Socialism has a pretty clear definition - complete government control of the means of production.

    You could argue that any government policy that transfers ownership or control over companies from private owners to the government pulls you in the direction of Socialism, but even then, you have quite a way to go before you reach the real thing.

    If we want a Herbertarian link, then the means of production (tools, factories, cattle, land) were nothing more than the key to power in Karl Marx's vision. In that sense, they fill a very similar role to the Spice Melange in that other widely-read work of political fiction.
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2012 12:19

    In Dune, everything was part of CHOAM. The Emperor's real power was giving out CHOAM directorships to Great Houses to produce a specific product, which was where their power lay.

    I'm not sure what you'd call that.
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 09 Oct 2012 17:29

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:theological...

    It's like the Sicilian villian in The Princess Bride exclaiming "inconceivable" over and over again.


    Why do you keep saying that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

    the·ol·o·gy: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world


    :lol: My mistake, Freak. Thanks for catching me on that. I meant i-de-ol-o-gy. Sorry that my occasional retardedness slipped through my posts. I appreciated the Princess Bride quote as a your rebuke, too. :)
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 09 Oct 2012 17:32

    Freakzilla wrote:In Dune, everything was part of CHOAM. The Emperor's real power was giving out CHOAM directorships to Great Houses to produce a specific product, which was where their power lay.

    I'm not sure what you'd call that.


    We call that "Monopoly contracts." Or something like that. :geek:
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: What is the Orthodox Herbertarian Definition of Socialism?

    Postby Visigoth » 16 Oct 2012 00:39

    I lived in a Marxist-Lennist doctrined country. Americans do not have a clue about Socialism, Comunism, or Mitt R.

    What is funny is that the Bible Belt have been excusing their vote for Romney because he is a Christian: George Bush killed more young men in the name of peace than Patton. And Romney is not a Christian. He is a Mormon running with a Catholic. It amazes me that not one Protestant Anglo Saxon American is not available to run for the Republicans. The Protestants loath the Catholics, but they are dependent(Protestants) on Catholic Ethics. Republicans destroy, no, steal the economy of the regular folk. Republicans were in power when the stimulus was issued, the banking system collapsed, GM bankrupted, the housing crisis surfaced. Republicans legacy is destruction of the US and its people. All of its people.

    And Romney is not a Christian. He is partaking in desecration of the Bible by carrying his Mormon Bible which is the Old, the New, and Smith tablets.

    When this country accepts what is truly right or wrong and not just vote money, it will prosper. In the mean time, let us divide our selves further, let us keep flying flags of oppresion like the confederate flag,, let us keep blaming the Mexicans, the welfare recipients, the minorities, Obama, ObamaCare which is here to stay, the Mexicans, the minorities, Al Gore, Saddam, Clinton, the Mexicans, Papa Smurf, Hillary the devil incarnate.

    This country is ruled by Anglo-Saxon Protestant Power. When things go wrong do not blame the Latins or Socialism which most Americans do not know what it entails, or really care to find what is and what should never be.

    Good Luck Americans, our country needs real Americans to step forward and speak the truth, but that is not so easily done when we are bought and sold in the Market Place. Money is the root of all evil. Death forever to Injustice, Greed, Envy (those damn Mexicans sending our money to Mexico), Racism. It is hard to let go what your daddy taugth you about the Communist, Latins, African-Americans, whatever, it does not means that he was right. Do not teach your kids to hate others. I know Bible toting six day aweek church goers that have a cache of derogatory jokes for Mexicans, African -Americans, and of course my old not so favorite derogatory term for an Arab, Camel Jockeys, and they are teaching this to their kid. Also, remember when some of us kept their kids home from School so the kid would not look up to an African-American man in the highest of Offices in the Nation. And we worry about Socialism?
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