Discribe the BG!

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2009 07:28

If somehow awakended, Leto's pearls would create havock for he BG but as SC put it, even another Leto II couldn't undo the GP. I think destroying the worms on Rakis out of that fear was just what Taraza and Odrade told their inner opposition and a power grab.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Apr 2009 17:17

Aren't the pearls still significant though? I thought they were how Sheeana 'talked' with the Worms (although I could be missing something there).

Anyway, my understanding is that, if the pearls are somehow significant, they each contain a fraction of Leto's. These fractions all contribute to the whole of Leto's prescient vision except he's not controlling it anymore i.e. he's not restraining it. Thus humanity is in some small way under a prescient controlling factor. Taraza's plan was to significantly reduce this grip by removing most of the pearls. And then (as has been said) when they return in large numbers humanity will have diverged away from the vision and so: follow the Golden Brick road.

...Or it was just as Chigger said, Bene Gesserit fear :?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Seraphan » 26 Apr 2009 09:28

I'm going more for what Chig and Freak said, BG fear and a power grab. There was no way for them to know whether or not Leto's pearls of awareness controled anything. I dont think they even mention why they think as such.
My confusion relies on the scope of their plan: Miles Teg, the Atreides Manifesto, the ghola of Duncan Idaho, etc, just to destroy Rakis and most of the worms.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Apr 2009 13:20

Seraphan wrote:I'm going more for what Chig and Freak said, BG fear and a power grab. There was no way for them to know whether or not Leto's pearls of awareness controled anything. I dont think they even mention why they think as such.
My confusion relies on the scope of their plan: Miles Teg, the Atreides Manifesto, the ghola of Duncan Idaho, etc, just to destroy Rakis and most of the worms.


...and a corner on the spice market as sole producers, either by wringing Axlotl tech from Sytale or the spice cycle.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby moreh_yeladim » 04 May 2009 13:57

I'm going to just guess that they wanted to destroy the worms because they thought that a KH *creates* the future he sees rather than *seeing* the future. Judging by the way KHs have been wrong in the series, I'll go with the latter. Thus they would avoid a KH because they believe he functions as some form of creator god capable of making certain events happen. They don't want that enslavement again.

Question on the weaning humanity off the spice... why did nobody ever think to just genetically engineer humans that produce their own spice supply in the body? If it's *that* beneficial and it can be made in axlotl tanks... which are made from humans... you'd think someone could teach a human cell to make spice.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 14:05

The KH sees all possible futures and chooses the path to the future he wants, he doesn't actually create. The only way the KH can create is to choose a path not shown in any vision... which is what Leto II did.

I don't think it was that simple with the spice. It took millenia for the BT to learn how to make spice. Allthough the axlotl tanks are human, the conditions in the womb are still controlled. I don't think a woman could funtion as a tank and a normal person at the same time. Maybe in the distant future...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby moreh_yeladim » 04 May 2009 14:13

Freakzilla wrote:The KH sees all possible futures and chooses the path to the future he wants, he doesn't actually create. The only way the KH can create is to choose a path not shown in any vision... which is what Leto II did.

I don't think it was that simple with the spice. It took millenia for the BT to learn how to make spice. Allthough the axlotl tanks are human, the conditions in the womb are still controlled. I don't think a woman could funtion as a tank and a normal person at the same time. Maybe in the distant future...

I don't mean using women as spice production tanks while they live normal lives. I mean engineering human cells to produce spice the way they produce any of the various proteins used in the human body. Sure, it took the BT millenia to learn how to make spice, but I think that the feudal social structure slowed things down. Technological progress definitely seems to have sped up by the time of Heretics.

And I know the KH doesn't create. However, those latter two books seem to show the BG thinking that he did create.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 14:34

moreh_yeladim wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The KH sees all possible futures and chooses the path to the future he wants, he doesn't actually create. The only way the KH can create is to choose a path not shown in any vision... which is what Leto II did.

I don't think it was that simple with the spice. It took millenia for the BT to learn how to make spice. Allthough the axlotl tanks are human, the conditions in the womb are still controlled. I don't think a woman could funtion as a tank and a normal person at the same time. Maybe in the distant future...

I don't mean using women as spice production tanks while they live normal lives. I mean engineering human cells to produce spice the way they produce any of the various proteins used in the human body. Sure, it took the BT millenia to learn how to make spice, but I think that the feudal social structure slowed things down. Technological progress definitely seems to have sped up by the time of Heretics.


If anyone could do it I'd think it'd be the BG. But they hadn't even learned tank tech yet from Scytale by the end of HoD. Like I said, maybe in the future but what's the point? There will be Duniformed worlds all over before long.

And I know the KH doesn't create. However, those latter two books seem to show the BG thinking that he did create.


The act of seeing the future changes it, in that way they could be considered to create.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 May 2009 16:31

I seem to recall Frank describing the act of prescience as 'seeing' the waveform collapse (it's in Dune). The waveform describes all possible states of an entity and the probability of their being there. But once observed the waveform collapses, and the entity is definitely located at one state (well, nearly :wink: ). Thus by seeing and I suppose following through on a vision the oracle forces that sequence of events.

At least, that is my understanding...

The way he describes consciousness as a way of reducing things to symbols makes me wonder if following the visions leads to stagnation because it is a simpler existence. As in, everything (in the visions) is always being reduced instead of diverged. Fits in with the idea of Paul taking all the threads and tying them together in Dune Messiah.

I don't know how much of this type of thing the Bene Gesserit would have been able to infer though...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 17:05

SadisticCynic wrote:I seem to recall Frank describing the act of prescience as 'seeing' the waveform collapse (it's in Dune). The waveform describes all possible states of an entity and the probability of their being there. But once observed the waveform collapses, and the entity is definitely located at one state (well, nearly :wink: ). Thus by seeing and I suppose following through on a vision the oracle forces that sequence of events.

At least, that is my understanding...

The way he describes consciousness as a way of reducing things to symbols makes me wonder if following the visions leads to stagnation because it is a simpler existence. As in, everything (in the visions) is always being reduced instead of diverged. Fits in with the idea of Paul taking all the threads and tying them together in Dune Messiah.


What you say makes sense, but the way I saw it, Paul didn't tie paths together, he eliminated alternate paths by his choice of path. Eventually there was only one left. Leto had to create new paths, then tie them together and focus them through himself.

I don't know how much of this type of thing the Bene Gesserit would have been able to infer though...


I think they understood the "prescient trap" but probably new little of the details. That always made me wonder if they understood it before they got their KH and what his purpose would have been as part of the BG.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby moreh_yeladim » 04 May 2009 17:08

Freakzilla wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The KH sees all possible futures and chooses the path to the future he wants, he doesn't actually create. The only way the KH can create is to choose a path not shown in any vision... which is what Leto II did.

I don't think it was that simple with the spice. It took millenia for the BT to learn how to make spice. Allthough the axlotl tanks are human, the conditions in the womb are still controlled. I don't think a woman could funtion as a tank and a normal person at the same time. Maybe in the distant future...

I don't mean using women as spice production tanks while they live normal lives. I mean engineering human cells to produce spice the way they produce any of the various proteins used in the human body. Sure, it took the BT millenia to learn how to make spice, but I think that the feudal social structure slowed things down. Technological progress definitely seems to have sped up by the time of Heretics.


If anyone could do it I'd think it'd be the BG. But they hadn't even learned tank tech yet from Scytale by the end of HoD. Like I said, maybe in the future but what's the point? There will be Duniformed worlds all over before long.

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 17:12

moreh_yeladim wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The KH sees all possible futures and chooses the path to the future he wants, he doesn't actually create. The only way the KH can create is to choose a path not shown in any vision... which is what Leto II did.

I don't think it was that simple with the spice. It took millenia for the BT to learn how to make spice. Allthough the axlotl tanks are human, the conditions in the womb are still controlled. I don't think a woman could funtion as a tank and a normal person at the same time. Maybe in the distant future...

I don't mean using women as spice production tanks while they live normal lives. I mean engineering human cells to produce spice the way they produce any of the various proteins used in the human body. Sure, it took the BT millenia to learn how to make spice, but I think that the feudal social structure slowed things down. Technological progress definitely seems to have sped up by the time of Heretics.


If anyone could do it I'd think it'd be the BG. But they hadn't even learned tank tech yet from Scytale by the end of HoD. Like I said, maybe in the future but what's the point? There will be Duniformed worlds all over before long.

To reduce dependency on a destructible natural resource! The Bene Gesserit abhorred dependency.


In that case they should have weaned themselves off the spice centuries prior.

To me, the spice still being available at the end of CH:D was a huge plot hole. I didn't understand why Leto didn't just destroy it. The only answer I can think of is that it's essensial in some way to the survival of humanity.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 May 2009 17:25

I always thought it was essential to the growth of mankind towards maturity. Isn't there some mention of humanity's movement from adolescence?


I think they understood the "prescient trap" but probably new little of the details. That always made me wonder if they understood it before they got their KH and what his purpose would have been as part of the BG.


I always found this interesting as well. They wanted the maturing of humanity (trust the women to be the mature ones :roll: ) but how a prescient male would do this is beyond me. I suppose however that it worked out that way anyway. :)
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 17:42

I think the KH was going to be their bid for ascension and direct control of the empire.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 May 2009 17:49

Hmmm... but didn't the Bene Gesserit like to control (or influence?) from behind the scenes? It doesn't sound like them to gather power around themselves, at least not so obviously.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 17:51

SadisticCynic wrote:Hmmm... but didn't the Bene Gesserit like to control (or influence?) from behind the scenes? It doesn't sound like them to gather power around themselves, at least not so obviously.


You mean like being the dominant military force in the Old Empire durring the latter books? :wink:
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 May 2009 18:25

Damn. :doh: Good point. Teg and Burzmali etc.

But perhaps this was brought about by the collapse of an Empire. They can no longer manipulate from behind the scenes and are thus forced into becoming an obvious power. It's always hard to think of the Bene Gesserit as anything more than a large secret society (due to how accurately they are portrayed no doubt). It would have been interesting to see a Bene Gesserit run Empire but I wonder what their purpose would have been? I would expect they know the dangers of direct and total control, so if they took that route they must expect to either stagnate or end. In the background however they can adapt and change and allow other power groups to do the same while endeavoring to ensure humanity's survival.

The total control thing just smells like Honoured Matre attitudes to me. But I don't deny you are probably right. :)
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 18:33

But that collapse was a result of their KH breeding program. Either way, the KH would have taken the throne. I suppose a KH under their control could rule while they still remained in the background, but why?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 May 2009 18:54

All I can think of is that staying in the background promotes longevity. :) Why would they take control? Then again, as a point of comparison, the Spacing Guild could have taken control and had their heyday but they didn't and look how that turned out.

(I admit I am starting to stumble a little with my own line of reasoning :? )

Just as a thought, in Leto's message (writing on the wall :) ) to the Bene Gesserit he mentions them withering into a secret society. I wonder if he meant for them to take a more active role. And indeed they do realise, I think, that they cannot step outside the river of humanity and pretend to be objective observers of some kind, hence the reintroduction (or rather conscious reintroduction, remember the idea of making meals nice for each other) of love as part of their humanity.

(Hmm, now I'm arguing against myself :) )
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2009 20:16

The were already and always had been a secret society, but yes, I think he was saying they needed to take a more active role.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SandChigger » 04 May 2009 22:18

The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future, because when Leto idly toys with the idea of throwing himself off the top of his tower in the Sareer, far from any source of water for the sandtrout, he feels the Golden Path winking in and out of existence.

Of course, it could also be that some later necessary event in the establishment of the GP would be prevented by his death at that particular point in time.

Another mystery. ;)
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby inhuien » 05 May 2009 07:43

Freakzilla wrote:To me, the spice still being available at the end of CH:D was a huge plot hole. I didn't understand why Leto didn't just destroy it. The only answer I can think of is that it's essensial in some way to the survival of humanity.

SandChigger wrote:The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future, because when Leto idly toys with the idea of throwing himself off the top of his tower in the Sareer, far from any source of water for the sandtrout, he feels the Golden Path winking in and out of existence.

Of course, it could also be that some later necessary event in the establishment of the GP would be prevented by his death at that particular point in time.

Another mystery. ;)

I've always thought that the continuance of the spice cycle after GEoD was just that, a cycle. As it has been, so shall it be. However to attempt to rationalize it into the overarching Duniverse it must have been to do with the long term survival of the Bene Gesserit, Them being the Shepherds of Humanity and all that jazz.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Rakis » 05 May 2009 10:01

I always thought we needed a book between GEoD and HoD to give us more insights about the "rise" to power of the BG and the role of the Tlelaxu as well... :think:

But i'm perfectly satisfied with the mysteries...I don't want another book, KJA...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 05 May 2009 10:06

It is nice to wonder and question the motives of the BG there were a secret group with plans within plans. Im sure FH left it that way for this reason.

Still I like to ask real dune folks for their opinions...

Does Teg mention his own opinion on the sisterhood and their goals?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SadisticCynic » 05 May 2009 10:11

The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future


I was thinking about this today and how it related to the tau orgy, wherein the Fremen are somehow aware of each other in their minds. This is strikingly similar to the ideas Frank expressed about the human species as an organism and the Avata in Pandora. As the spice amplified this awareness, perhaps it is necessary as part of the maturation of the 'humanity' organism i.e. it is more aware of itself as a whole.

The downside of this is the subsequent occurence of the powerful prescient, whose visions may lead to stagnation. Leto therefore needed to find a way of allowing this maturation to occur (keep the spice) while preventing the reoccurence of someone as powerful as himself, or even simply a very strong prescient. Thus the Siona gene, the ability to generate spice supplies (Bene Tleilax innovation etc), the catchup maturation of men compared to women and the other aspects of the infamous Golden Path.
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