Discribe the BG!

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Schu » 23 Apr 2009 00:24

Well the way I saw it was that Paul got them into the mess, Leto II got them out of it, another KH could get them right back in the same mess again. I kinda thought that might have been why Leto considered destroying the BG.

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SandChigger » 23 Apr 2009 00:38

But even another Leto couldn't have destroyed the GP.

Even a "God Emperor Teg" couldn't find every pocket of humans everywhere in the universe.

After the Scattering, all disasters are local, even if local is "Leto huge". ;)

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Phaedrus » 23 Apr 2009 01:19

I'm actually beginning to disagree with the "unstoppable GP through the Scattering" theory.

Even humankind spreading at exponential rates with no-ships and immunity to prescience isn't infinite.

This is the fallacy of power: ultimately it is effective only in an absolute, limited universe. But the basic lesson of our relativistic universe is that things change. Any power must always meet a greater power.


The infinite numbers game says that not even the Scattering is an assurance of human survival.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SandChigger » 23 Apr 2009 05:54

Um, don't get me started on the use of "infinite" again, alright? Nothing is, ever has, or even can be. Period.

Take it up with Freak if you've got a problem. :P

People escaping from millions of planets over a period of one and a half millennia ... you try to go chase them all down and kill them and "brake" the GP. Knock yerself out. :lol:

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Mr. Teg » 23 Apr 2009 06:17

SandChigger wrote:Um, don't get me started on the use of "infinite" again, alright? Nothing is, ever has, or even can be. Period.

Take it up with Freak if you've got a problem. :P

People escaping from millions of planets over a period of one and a half millennia ... you try to go chase them all down and kill them and "brake" the GP. Knock yerself out. :lol:


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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 23 Apr 2009 08:27

SandChigger wrote:Um, don't get me started on the use of "infinite" again, alright? Nothing is, ever has, or even can be. Period.

Take it up with Freak if you've got a problem. :P

People escaping from millions of planets over a period of one and a half millennia ... you try to go chase them all down and kill them and "brake" the GP. Knock yerself out. :lol:


A superorganism could do so without needing to phiscally reach any of those planets.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Rakis » 23 Apr 2009 08:48

SwordMaster wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Um, don't get me started on the use of "infinite" again, alright? Nothing is, ever has, or even can be. Period.

Take it up with Freak if you've got a problem. :P

People escaping from millions of planets over a period of one and a half millennia ... you try to go chase them all down and kill them and "brake" the GP. Knock yerself out. :lol:


A superorganism could do so without needing to phiscally reach any of those planets.


I hope you don't mean a Normacle or Omnibus... :pray:
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Apr 2009 09:33

No, Paul and Leto both refered to humanity acting at times as a single organism. But I don't think FH meant in a literal sense.

I suppose FH may have intended for "The Net" to be some way of tapping into that "superorganism" consciousness but we're moving into the realm of conjecture there and not discussing canon anymore.

I don't think the BG could do anything to threaten the GP. I imagine Sheeana's religion could spread across the universe but that's not going to kill everyone.

In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men.
Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of
Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that
your mind shrinks from it."

~Leto II, CoD
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Rakis » 23 Apr 2009 12:40

Yes, and Bell also talks about a (possible) multiverse that could be travelled by no-ships, so the possibilities are indeed...infinite...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Phaedrus » 23 Apr 2009 13:38

SandChigger wrote:Um, don't get me started on the use of "infinite" again, alright? Nothing is, ever has, or even can be. Period.

Take it up with Freak if you've got a problem. :P


I agree, my point was more that really big numbers don't mean much considering that the universe is an even bigger place. Relative infinity, like the kind you use in physics equations to represent "really fucking big."

People escaping from millions of planets over a period of one and a half millennia ... you try to go chase them all down and kill them and "brake" the GP. Knock yerself out. :lol:


Wouldn't be that hard for an alien species that had been escaping from billions of planets over the same or a longer period of time.

OR FOR NORMA CENVA. OR DUNCAN JESUS HERBERT CHRIST IDAHO.

In all seriousness, though, Daniel and Marty definitely seem capable of seeing no-ships and no-people, and they seemed to believe they were endangering Duncan, despite having not moved an inch from their garden plantings. If you had enough people like them to drive the Honored Matres back into the Old Empire, I could imagine them being a threat of sorts to the human population as a whole. Except, of course, for the fact that Duncan did seem capable of seeing and getting around the Net. So maybe the BG would have actually been endangering humanity by killing off their "potential KH"?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Tleszer » 23 Apr 2009 14:17

Phaedrus wrote:DUNCAN JESUS HERBERT CHRIST IDAHO.


He's my messiah. :confusion-confused: Whoops, sorry. It was just gas. :doh:
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SandChigger » 23 Apr 2009 21:46

Superorganism? Alien species?

Ahem. :naughty:

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Schu » 23 Apr 2009 23:34

SandChigger wrote:But even another Leto couldn't have destroyed the GP.

Even a "God Emperor Teg" couldn't find every pocket of humans everywhere in the universe.

After the Scattering, all disasters are local, even if local is "Leto huge". ;)


Do you think the BG were willing to take the risk that that logic is wrong? I don't think it's certain that Teg couldn't have, it just makes his task a lot harder.

Ironically, scattering the population makes more population, meaning you will have more chance of randomly spawning someone that has such amazing talents and power that they can have and hold more power, and therefore threaten more people's survival.

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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Apr 2009 01:27

SandChigger wrote:Superorganism? Alien species?

Ahem. :naughty:


I think he probably means human/post-human or AI...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 24 Apr 2009 08:54

SandChigger wrote:Superorganism? Alien species?

Ahem. :naughty:


Nothing Alien.
FH was a Superorganism student and teacher.
What do YOU think the NET was?

Why was it a risk to Duncan?

but yah, we are out of cannon. fine.

Can we all agree then, the BG existed only to continue to exist?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 24 Apr 2009 08:58

Freakzilla wrote:No, Paul and Leto both refered to humanity acting at times as a single organism. But I don't think FH meant in a literal sense.

I suppose FH may have intended for "The Net" to be some way of tapping into that "superorganism" consciousness but we're moving into the realm of conjecture there and not discussing canon anymore.

I don't think the BG could do anything to threaten the GP. I imagine Sheeana's religion could spread across the universe but that's not going to kill everyone.

In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men.
Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of
Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that
your mind shrinks from it."

~Leto II, CoD


Yeah, thats where I get my idea from. Paul and Leto knew of it. But it is conjecture. Also FZ you yourself came up with a better concept for Dune 7 in less then 20 seconds while you posted. I would say most of this message board could write dune 7 and it would be way better then everything those two have put out.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Seraphan » 24 Apr 2009 09:28

I dont think that a threat to humanity post-scatering is possible, dont forget that human population grows exponencialy, add that to a large scatering with no-ships into galaxies that no one ever set foot in and it's impossible to eliminate humanity.

I've started re-reading heretics of Dune and i've gotten the impression that their fear of the kwisatz haderach is related not only to a threat that the sisterhood would be in bondage again, but also to a fear that it would awaken, in some way, Leto II's pearls of awareness.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 24 Apr 2009 14:08

Seraphan wrote:I dont think that a threat to humanity post-scatering is possible, dont forget that human population grows exponencialy, add that to a large scatering with no-ships into galaxies that no one ever set foot in and it's impossible to eliminate humanity.

I've started re-reading heretics of Dune and i've gotten the impression that their fear of the kwisatz haderach is related not only to a threat that the sisterhood would be in bondage again, but also to a fear that it would awaken, in some way, Leto II's pearls of awareness.


And somehow these pearls of awareness could also pose a threat to the BG?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Tleszer » 24 Apr 2009 14:17

From what I understood, the BG thought that if Leto actually did exist in those pearls he (or a similar force) could still somehow "guide humanity" with an innate prescience within the worms. They thought that it was possible that humanity could still be under his spell and that's why Taraza wanted Rakis and nearly all the worms destroyed.

Slap me if I'm merely stating the obvious. I just wanted to feel that I was contributing. :mrgreen:
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 24 Apr 2009 14:19

Tleszer wrote:From what I understood, the BG thought that if Leto actually did exist in those pearls he (or a similar force) could still somehow "guide humanity" with an innate prescience within the worms. They thought that it was possible that humanity could still be under his spell and that's why Taraza wanted Rakis and nearly all the worms destroyed.

Slap me if I'm merely stating the obvious. I just wanted to feel that I was contributing. :mrgreen:


No that is helpfull and thanks for your contribution. I do understand that fear, but it was not so much fear as to destroy all worms mainly that last one they needed so badly for the future of spice production?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Seraphan » 24 Apr 2009 14:31

Yeah, i still have some trouble digesting the whole BG plan in heretics.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Tleszer » 24 Apr 2009 14:31

I think the assumption with the last worm was that by the time enough worms existed in the universe again humanity would have already broken free from the Tyrant's grip (pearl). Also, they were safeguarding the worm so that, should the opportunity present itself, they would be able to manipulate a religion around Sheeana and the worm and regain a certain hold on the populace, a hold that they haven't had since before Paul became Muad'Dib.

Also, since the HM wiped out the BT, the BG would have a monopoly on the spice. I think they were also treating this monopoly just as Leto did. It was a way to keep weaning the people off of the spice.
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SwordMaster » 24 Apr 2009 14:39

Tleszer wrote:I think the assumption with the last worm was that by the time enough worms existed in the universe again humanity would have already broken free from the Tyrant's grip (pearl). Also, they were safeguarding the worm so that, should the opportunity present itself, they would be able to manipulate a religion around Sheeana and the worm and regain a certain hold on the populace, a hold that they haven't had since before Paul became Muad'Dib.

Also, since the HM wiped out the BT, the BG would have a monopoly on the spice. I think they were also treating this monopoly just as Leto did. It was a way to keep weaning the people off of the spice.


Interesting but were they weaning themself off the spice? They did not know the HM had destroyed the BT till after they had transported the worm... But I like idea of keeping it for "able to manipulate a religion" seems more viable, but again, seems a catch 22 if they keep the pearl alive will it not continue to pose that same threat?
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby Rakis » 24 Apr 2009 22:44

Baraka Bryan wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Tleszer wrote:I think the assumption with the last worm was that by the time enough worms existed in the universe again humanity would have already broken free from the Tyrant's grip (pearl). Also, they were safeguarding the worm so that, should the opportunity present itself, they would be able to manipulate a religion around Sheeana and the worm and regain a certain hold on the populace, a hold that they haven't had since before Paul became Muad'Dib.

Also, since the HM wiped out the BT, the BG would have a monopoly on the spice. I think they were also treating this monopoly just as Leto did. It was a way to keep weaning the people off of the spice.


Interesting but were they weaning themself off the spice? They did not know the HM had destroyed the BT till after they had transported the worm... But I like idea of keeping it for "able to manipulate a religion" seems more viable, but again, seems a catch 22 if they keep the pearl alive will it not continue to pose that same threat?


I think they wanted to break human dependence on the spice, much like Leto did. It was the only way that humans would be independent of the worms and of Leto's control. his pearls of awareness were spread through the entire worm population that descended from him. by only leaving one, they diminished his influence to virtually nil.


But they did seed Chapterhouse AND other planets with sandtrout, increasing the risks of the Worm coming back...
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Re: Discribe the BG!

Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2009 01:23

I still don't get how the "pearls of awareness" make any difference. Leto isn't conscious, isn't some sort of "hive mind" in the worms (which aren't even remotely sentient).

BG delusion/fear.


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