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    Other Memory

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    Postby moreh_yeladim » 07 Oct 2008 15:36

    loremaster wrote:I actually thought one plausible hypothesis was going to be a "time protein" aspect of genetics.

    Gibberish? but when you look at how mutation occurs, it is quite conceivable that any sort of protein structure which manipulated time to the tiniest degree would be the basis of the whole books.

    By then taking commonly known mechanisms in genetics (such as copy number or expression) you could vary strength. Translocation of the time-bending coding region into other proteins would generate many new proteins which might have new abilities. Mutation would generate similar, non/semi functional proteins a la Siona.

    In much the same way as i once wanted to explain OM via oscillations in molecules, i think time-proteins might explain prescience AND om.

    Imagine that one somehow quantumly unstable protein could come about, which had implications for time. If that protein could oscillate in such a way as to generate a signal, where everything occuring around it could subtly alter the frequency/variation of the many-dimensional wave it generated, then potentially another receptive protein might be able to pick up and decode that signal, which might have come from the past or the future in time. Interference would also explain how prescients were shielded from other prescients. Guildsmen might be poor recievers but good transmitters, Or it might be the converse (not transmitting therefore unable to be seen.) Someone like Leto would probably be both good at recieving AND transmitting. I dont know, its a method, not a mechanism :p .

    Being biological would instantly validate any and all breeding/hereditary links too, since thats the whole basis for biology.

    On the other hand my understanding of physics is cack, so signals which travel in time much like others travel in 3 might be total bollocks. But to me, any wave which DID travel in time would explain lots, especially if that wave had the ability to "collapse" any quantum uncertainties, thus "Locking" the future in place.


    Feel free to pick that apart at your leisure. I'll be dissapointed if i dont provoke a reaction in at least 'Chig and Phaedrus.

    I sort of thought along those lines, of prescience as time-sight in one direction and Other Memory as time-sight in the other direction, but then I realized I was thinking of the wrong species from the wrong planet in the wrong franchise.

    I've never seen an Atreides walk out of a blue box. Let's keep it that way.
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    Postby SandChigger » 07 Oct 2008 15:45

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I see your whatever and I raise you one Bahumbug.

    Ah...bah! Hmmmmm...hmmmmm...BAH! ....hmmmmm...hmmmmm...hmmmmm!

    Oh. :shock:

    You said "bahhumbug!" not "Bah-Hum, bug!", didn't you?

    Nevermind. :oops:
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Oct 2008 15:51

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I see your whatever and I raise you one Bahumbug.

    Ah...bah! Hmmmmm...hmmmmm...BAH! ....hmmmmm...hmmmmm...hmmmmm!

    Oh. :shock:

    You said "bahhumbug!" not "Bah-Hum, bug!", didn't you?

    Nevermind. :oops:


    What are you going on about? :?

    Oh, wait, you think I said "bah-hum" directed at the Bug, which would be you. What exactly would "bah-hum" mean then? :lol:

    For the record I was bahumbugging Serkanner's whatever, not your whatever that he happened to be quoting. This is getting confusing.
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    Postby loremaster » 08 Oct 2008 02:05

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I see your whatever and I raise you one Bahumbug.

    Ah...bah! Hmmmmm...hmmmmm...BAH! ....hmmmmm...hmmmmm...hmmmmm!

    Oh. :shock:

    You said "bahhumbug!" not "Bah-Hum, bug!", didn't you?

    Nevermind. :oops:


    it's interesting how your post-count is so high, isn't it?
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    Postby SandChigger » 08 Oct 2008 02:42

    Hmmmmmmm?

    (No, definitely not Middle C...maybe the first E just above it? :? )

    I'm sorry, you were saying, hmmmmmm?

    Post count?

    Yes, 'tis a bit high, isn't it? Very low informational content to actual volume ratio, I'm sure. Bit of a bother, isn't it? Bit of a worry? Oh well, always did tend toward the phatic!

    Or was that, fat tick? Hmmmmmm.....
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby inhuien » 08 Oct 2008 06:52

    You guys trying at the Bene Tleilax humming language. Harumph :)
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Tarriebrinkum » 16 Nov 2009 15:49

    I would first like to state I have so far only read through to page 6 of this discussion, and I admit I have very limited knowledge on the workings of DNA but I thought I'd give my two pence in the matter as I've noticed no one has addressed this yet.

    I know myself there are things that get passed down that are not learnt, or 'instinct'. At the age of 1 and a half, my parents split up and my mother wouldn't allow my dad to have any contact with me untill I was 12. When I met him for the first time I was really very shocked as to how similar we were. We liked the same music, had the same sence of humour etc, some of this this can be put down to genes but the thing that got me to think was the fact that we have very very similar mannerisms, we hold our hands the same way, and after I got to know him better I realised it went futher than that, we actually think the same way. We litterelly have the same logic. Granted I believe the subconcious influence us emmensly, and some of this could be explained from memorys when I was a baby, but not behavioural patterns that we share, I know this is to do with the nature vs nurtue debate but I have never found anything that explains all the little similaritys we share.

    A few years ago or so ago I was talking to my mother about studies done with animals, centered around the idea of genetic memory. Ospreys on their first migration from Scotland (after their parents had died,) returned to the same reserve in Africa within 50 miles of their parents old nest. Whales travel from Artic to Antartic on the same route as their ancestors have, without being shown etc etc there are tons of cases like this in the natural world.

    I'll get to the point. I started looking at the theory of evolution, I always thought of it as scientic mumbo jumbo to explain change is enevitable and as organisms life will enevitablilly adapt to survive. I know there is more to it now but there were too many innconsitancies, which led me to anti Darwin theories, I also looked into how Darwin managed to get his theory to be the given conculsion. As with most things it was all politics, he had the right backers and a damn fine publisist in essence.

    But one thing that caught my eye was lamarkism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarkism)

    I think it holds many answers and new questions in regards to the debate of OM.

    Have a look into it and see what you think, as I said before I really dont know enough about genetics or DNA to argue a point from a scientific prospective, and I wont attempt to pretend to know what I'm jibering about.

    I thought it would give you a new prospective to discuss OM.
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Tarriebrinkum » 16 Nov 2009 16:00

    I just went to have a re read of the wiki article there and its been changed since the last time I was on there, the origional edit had more empasis on the genetic memory side of thing, I'll be honest can't follow alot of what it says now, I don't read scientist. I'm now quite confused so I'm going to make coffee and chew the cud.
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Nov 2009 16:11

    Welcome Tarriebrinkum! Stop by the "Introduce Yourself" topic when you have time.

    (Watch out for the spelling nazis around here. :wink: )
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SandChigger » 16 Nov 2009 16:23

    Hello, hello. :)

    Genes build brains and brains determine behavior and predilections. What would be amazing is for you not to resemble your father in such things.

    Not quite ready to embrace Neo-Lamarckism yet, though. :)


    (Shpellink nazis? What spelling nazis?! :P )
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Nov 2009 16:42

    Welcome!

    Unfortuantely I have to agree with SandChigger, it is NOT remarkable that you resembled a parent you'd never met, it is totally predictable. It has NOTHING to do with OM. We don't yet know what % of our personalities are nature (genes) or nurture (experiences), but we DO know that it is a mix of both - that's all that's happening here. Your brain phyiscally resembles your parents' (because the genes that determined the structures in your brain came from your parents) and as such it behaves like your parents to a degree.

    If I build a new computer based on mixed schematics of two old computers what do you think it would behave like?

    As for the birds - birds have instinct to a level that is MESSED UP. It's truly frightening and humbling to see birds build nests from instinct. The same goes for the behavior of bees, and many other animals.

    But it ain't OM, it's just instinct. Some people (mostly religious but often athiests and agnostics too) have a seriously hard time accepting the way instict evolved in animals and as such freak out and fall back onto "there must be something else going on that we haven't figured out yet" - nope. Sorry. Nothing else going on, just behaviors that were randomly occuring and then selected for over BILLIONS of years until they reached the refined level they are now at.

    Anyone who has a good grasp of how DNA works can tell you one simple thing - NO INFORMATION IS ADDED DURING YOUR LIFETIME. NO INFORMATION FROM YOUR LIFETIME IS PASSED DOWN TO THE NEXT GENERATION. End of story.

    The ONLY way to believe in OM is to believe in magic. Or, to believe in magic but to disguise it as quantum physics BS.



    Sorry to have your first experience talking to me be so forceful, but this one particular subject gets me going pretty good, because people like to introduce a lot of psuedo science and straight-out BS. It's fine if people don't understand evoluton, genetics and instinct to a level where they can accept them fully, but it's not fine to just say "nope. I'm right, even though I know little about this subject. all the scientists are wrong." This one has been put to bed a thousand times but it just keeps getting up!!

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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SadisticCynic » 17 Nov 2009 12:23

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:But it ain't OM, it's just instinct. Some people (mostly religious but often athiests and agnostics too) have a seriously hard time accepting the way instict evolved in animals and as such freak out and fall back onto "there must be something else going on that we haven't figured out yet" - nope. Sorry. Nothing else going on, just behaviors that were randomly occuring and then selected for over BILLIONS of years until they reached the refined level they are now at.



    Ahem, I don't think it is quite "billions" of years, more like a few hundreds of millions of years. The Earth is thought to have been around for only about 4.5 billion years and if you trust the evolutionary narrative then all developement of life must occur by chance, supposedly taking awhile. In any case we must wait until about 500 million years ago until roughly the Cambrian period to start getting animal phyla. (At least as far as I know :) ).
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Nov 2009 12:30

    That's what the Flying Spaghetti Monster WANTS you to think. :wink:
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SadisticCynic » 17 Nov 2009 12:37

    Freakzilla wrote:That's what the Flying Spaghetti Monster WANTS you to think. :wink:


    Um... Ramen???
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SadisticCynic » 17 Nov 2009 12:57

    Sorry for the double post.

    Also, consider epigenetics:

    Wikipedia wrote:In biology, the term epigenetics refers to changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: over; above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[1] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[2]



    Epigenetics

    i.e. Genetic reductionism may not be the best approach.

    I haven't read much about this, just heard about it and it seemed relevant; hence the quote from Wikipedia.
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Nov 2009 15:07

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:But it ain't OM, it's just instinct. Some people (mostly religious but often athiests and agnostics too) have a seriously hard time accepting the way instict evolved in animals and as such freak out and fall back onto "there must be something else going on that we haven't figured out yet" - nope. Sorry. Nothing else going on, just behaviors that were randomly occuring and then selected for over BILLIONS of years until they reached the refined level they are now at.



    Ahem, I don't think it is quite "billions" of years, more like a few hundreds of millions of years. The Earth is thought to have been around for only about 4.5 billion years and if you trust the evolutionary narrative then all developement of life must occur by chance, supposedly taking awhile. In any case we must wait until about 500 million years ago until roughly the Cambrian period to start getting animal phyla. (At least as far as I know :) ).



    Fair enough, I was in a rush and just whipped out the rough numbers for "life" rather than "thinking life" to hammer home the point that the amounts of time involved in evolution are vast, and can easily account for a lot more advanced structures and behaviours than what people are often capable of wrapping their minds around.
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Nov 2009 19:40

    Tarriebrinkum wrote:I'll get to the point. I started looking at the theory of evolution, I always thought of it as scientic mumbo jumbo to explain change is enevitable and as organisms life will enevitablilly adapt to survive.


    Adaptation of individuals is different from what Darwin proposed. Darwin suggested that random variations in physical or behavioural characteristics from one generation to another, that are in turn inheritable, were selected and propagated based on their survival advantage, if any. That's different from a change in an individual's behaviour in order to adapt to a new environment.

    Tarriebrinkum wrote:I know there is more to it now but there were too many innconsitancies, which led me to anti Darwin theories, I also looked into how Darwin managed to get his theory to be the given conculsion. As with most things it was all politics, he had the right backers and a damn fine publisist in essence.


    Well, that may have been true initially, but Darwin's theory of evolution has persisted as the dominant theory because later discoveries have borne it out. Specifically, genetics has revealed the underlying mechanism by which mutations can occur, and by which they are retained in subsequent generations.

    But one thing that caught my eye was lamarkism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarkism)

    I think it holds many answers and new questions in regards to the debate of OM.


    Sadly, genetics pretty much rules out Lamarkism. Lamarkism was a theory that adaptations in the behaviour of individuals led to physical changes in the animal that could be inherited by its descendents. For example, Laamarkism suggests that a giraffe's neck is long because many many generations of giraffes adapted to eating higher and higher leaves of trees. The need for longer necks led to subsequent generations growing them.

    This theory had some traction as an alternative to Darwin's theory when little was known about the underlying mechanism of inheritance. Now, however, we know that there is no way for changes in an individual's behaviour to be propagated genetically to its descendents. Adaptive behaviours can be taught and learned, of course, but not inherited genetically.

    So the idea that memories or learned behaviours can be passed on directly to subsequent generations is very very unlikely. There's no mechanism for it that we know of.

    Edited to add:
    Thing wrote:Anyone who has a good grasp of how DNA works can tell you one simple thing - NO INFORMATION IS ADDED DURING YOUR LIFETIME. NO INFORMATION FROM YOUR LIFETIME IS PASSED DOWN TO THE NEXT GENERATION. End of story.


    What he said :).

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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SandChigger » 21 Nov 2009 11:22

    There's a new chuckler out of Oz named Kevin in the OM thread on the Facebook Dune group who's espousing the joys of speculation without getting tied down by the "specific wordage" of the books.

    His big idea seems to be that what the BG really couldn't see wasn't male-line Other Memory but the future (including the Golden Path); that the fact they could see their own genetic Other Memory but not the male fooled them into thinking that way.

    I guess if you choose not to be bound by acceptable (logical, rational, reasonable, possible?) interpretations of the words in the texts, any old fool notion becomes possible.

    http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2 ... opic=12158 & scroll down
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby SandChigger » 23 Nov 2009 05:32

    Hey, this Aussie Kevin is a live one! :lol:

    He's essentially working his way through the classic list of pretard arguments & rationalizations. I've just been told that it's too much to ask KJA & BH to use real Arabic because that would be slavishly copying FH's creative process, that it doesn't matter if Chisra Sala Muad'Dib isn't Arabic because IT'S FICTION, and that I can't call KJA a hack until I've written a book myself.

    It's ... awe-inspiring how they replicate the same patterns over and over and over again!

    But kinda boring at the same time. :roll:
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby trang » 23 Nov 2009 06:20

    Should develop a special kit to send those kinda folks when ya run across them.

    1. A ancient looking scroll that has FAQ for all the discussion points.
    2. A NU/MC Dune Dunce hat
    3. Links for KJA's various web endeavors
    4. links to all Dune Demotivators
    5. Complimentary jar of sand from Arrakis

    :)
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Nov 2009 07:40

    trang wrote:5. Complimentary jar of sand from Arrakis

    :)


    Someone sold "Dune Movie set sand" on ebay. Don't know if anyone bought it.
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    Re:

    Postby loremaster » 04 Dec 2009 04:19

    loremaster wrote:I actually thought one plausible hypothesis was going to be a "time protein" aspect of genetics.

    Gibberish? but when you look at how mutation occurs, it is quite conceivable that any sort of protein structure which manipulated time to the tiniest degree would be the basis of the whole books.

    By then taking commonly known mechanisms in genetics (such as copy number or expression) you could vary strength. Translocation of the time-bending coding region into other proteins would generate many new proteins which might have new abilities. Mutation would generate similar, non/semi functional proteins a la Siona.

    In much the same way as i once wanted to explain OM via oscillations in molecules, i think time-proteins might explain prescience AND om.

    Imagine that one somehow quantumly unstable protein could come about, which had implications for time. If that protein could oscillate in such a way as to generate a signal, where everything occuring around it could subtly alter the frequency/variation of the many-dimensional wave it generated, then potentially another receptive protein might be able to pick up and decode that signal, which might have come from the past or the future in time. Interference would also explain how prescients were shielded from other prescients. Guildsmen might be poor recievers but good transmitters, Or it might be the converse (not transmitting therefore unable to be seen.) Someone like Leto would probably be both good at recieving AND transmitting. I dont know, its a method, not a mechanism :p .

    Being biological would instantly validate any and all breeding/hereditary links too, since thats the whole basis for biology.

    On the other hand my understanding of physics is cack, so signals which travel in time much like others travel in 3 might be total bollocks. But to me, any wave which DID travel in time would explain lots, especially if that wave had the ability to "collapse" any quantum uncertainties, thus "Locking" the future in place.


    Feel free to pick that apart at your leisure. I'll be dissapointed if i dont provoke a reaction in at least 'Chig and Phaedrus.


    Shameless self bump, but i noticed what Terimikitirmasu (sp?) said about only reading six pages and figured, if im on the seventh, i have no chance!

    Sadistic - epigenetics is a fascinating field, but it never encodes anything new, it only modifies pre-existing genes. methylation can reduce expression etc but it will almost never, due to it's massive resetting during meiosis and embyrogenesis, produce novel ideas. Errors in epigenetics (for example, [i]imprinting[/] in prada-willis/angelmann syndrome) modify expression of existing sequences, they dont have any potential to recombine.

    Cellular memory does NOT have to be DNA based. There are dozens of examples of cells remembering "simple" past which can then be transmitted to decended cells. Cells have mechanisms for remembering recent bouts of oxidative stress, of damage. RNA, Proteins and hundreds of other messenger molecules can remain in/around cells for years. Cells contains lots of marks and signals showing their history.
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby lotek » 04 Dec 2009 05:22

    Someone like Leto would probably be both good at recieving AND transmitting. I dont know, its a method, not a mechanism :p .


    There is a quote from Paul I think where he explains he his the fulcrum, and the giver and the taker...
    that fits with your description of the great prescients being both receiver and transmitter :)

    (sorry for poor approximation of the quote, I'm sure Freak "The Quote" Zilla will help us out here)
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Dec 2009 07:47

    "These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
    into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
    to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and
    confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
    that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
    takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
    be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
    "And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
    "I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot
    take without . . . " He broke off, looking to the wall at his right.
    Chani felt a draft against her cheek, turned to see the hangings close.
    "It was Otheym," Paul said. "He was listening."

    ~Dune
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    Re: Other Memory

    Postby lotek » 04 Dec 2009 08:08

    nice!
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    lotek
     
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