gurensan wrote:Freakzilla wrote:Paul asks Jessica to show him where to find male OM:
Aloud, he said: "You speak of a place where you cannot enter? This place
which the Reverend Mother cannot face, show it to me."
She shook her head, terrified by the very thought.
"Show it to me!" he commanded.
But she could not escape him. Bludgeoned by the terrible force of him, she
closed her eyes and focused inward -- the-direction-that-is-dark.
Paul's consciousness flowed through and around her and into the darkness.
She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the
terror. Without knowing why, her whole being trembled at what she had seen -- a
region where a wind blew and sparks glared, where rings of light expanded and
contracted, where rows of tumescent white shapes flowed over and under and
around the lights, driven by darkness and a wind out of nowhere.
...nowhere in the context of that passage did Paul ask about OM.
Where is the place RMs cannot look? Masculine Other Memory.
Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
"And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
"I'm at the fulcrum," he said, "I cannot give without taking and I cannot take without...." He broke off, look to the wall at his right.
That's a little more context to what you posted above. The part before it is just Paul snarfing a handful of the Water and then grabbing Jessica's head. I don't see OM in it. Sounds more like FH making a comment on basic human nature to me.
That is Paul explaining why Reverend Mothers dare not access Male OM, the risk of possession.
Freakzilla wrote:"How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked.
"There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom
they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts a new shape on
hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both
cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
How about now?
I remember reading that, but I can't remember where it is to look up the context, but IIRC that was Paul referring to his level of prescience and time-awareness, and his awareness of the billions of lives he knew he was going to be responsible for the death of. He barely said anything about being the KH before Jessica changed the Water and became a RM herself, after which she should've been well aware of what a billion lives looks like. If he were talking about OM... then it's a very whiny, immature thing to say to his mother.
It's just before Paul meets the emperor's entourage in the Arrakeen governor's mansion after the Battle of Arrakeen. It was in response to Jessica's shock at Alia killing Harkonnen/Sardaukar wounded. You have a point about Jessica knowing what that would be like, though. However, a Reverend Mother's OM was a work in progress by FH at this point and that Jessica only had Shared OM received from Ramallo when she changed the Water. Regardless, the definition of the KH is a male BG with both feminine and masculine ancestral memories.
Freakzilla wrote:The difference is she did not have time to form her own persona before accessing OM.
True. It's not the only difference though. She was born with the deep training and had only to train her body to match. Paul's training could not have been as complete.
True, but after taking the WoL and being prescient, the difference in their OM was only 15 years.
Freakzilla wrote:She was giving him the deep training the whole time:"The sounds I make could be imitated."
"I'd know the difference."
He might at that, Hawat thought. That witch-mother of his is giving him the
deep training, certainly. I wonder what her precious school thinks of that?
Maybe that's why they sent the old Proctor here -- to whip our dear Lady Jessica
Thufir's speculating there, as well as speculating on the reason for Mohiam's visit. There is a possibility that anything that smacks of the BG in their social context might be thought of as "deep training." I don't think we can make this assumption based solely on Thufir's guess. In this arena, we have to perform as mentats as Thufir's not doing it for us.
And he was right, as indicated by your quote below.
"The Reverend Mother looked at Jessica. "You've been training him in the Way - I see the signs of it. I'd have done the same in your shoes and devil take the Rules."
"Now, I caution you," said the old woman, "to ignore the regular order of training. His own safety requires the Voice. He already has a good start in it, but we both know how much more he needs... and that desperately." She stepped close to Paul, stared down at him. "Goodbye, you human. I hope you make it. But if you don't - well, we shall yet succeed."
The question is - what type of training? Standard BG training, or the training any BG mother gives to her otherwise normal son? Just a thought experiment, it's undoubtedly much deeper than the usual mom->boy, but we can't rely on Thufir's opinion of the BG when judging the depth of the training of one person, even given these two.
BUT! Here's something!"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory - in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues in the past . . . but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said that a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot - into both feminine and masculine pasts."
and then later:
The old woman stared at Paul, then: "Young man, as a Proctor of the Bene Gesserit, I seek the Kwisatz Haderach, the male who truly can become one of us. Your mother sees the possibility in you, but she sees with the eyes of a mother. Possibility I see, too, but no more."
I can give you that he had it (grudgingly), after he took the Water, even though Frank played it down, but not using your quotes. Alia had it from the get-go and FH spent more than a few sentences on what was wrong with Alia. Yeah she was too young, but the differences in their training are pretty huge.
I think these should probably be moved to the appropriate area... I think we're discussing Dune more than Chap 21 of DM. You game to move it?
*Don't mind any typos, I don't have a PDF of anything and have to look stuff up and type book quotes by hand.
Yes, I'll move it to the OM topic, I believe it's in the BG forum... I don't mind discussing previous books and chapters so much, but "The Way" is explained more in later books (CH:D). After some tea, though