KWISATZ HADERACH

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    One of the two remaining Great Schools tasked with mentoring humanity

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 06 Aug 2010 22:57

Not. But thanks for playing. :)

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandRider » 06 Aug 2010 23:56

absolutely not.

for more obvious reasons than I care to get into right now ...
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 07 Aug 2010 04:07

That's a relief, I was beginning to get concerned.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Aug 2010 05:19

Ayat wrote:My point: the easiest way for the BT to gain a KH – Clone Paul.


You are talking about people who make sligs, chairdogs, face dancers and mentats. They "speak the language of God".

Now, would it be easier to make exactly what they wanted or to sneak onto Arrakis and steal cell samples from a prescient superman?

:think:

And since this topic went on to be debated I will point out that the DNA in nerve cell is exactly the same as it is in every other somatic cell in the body (apart from the fact that different cell types have different parts of the DNA ‘activated’ i.e. those genes being expressed - the parts being actively transcribed into mRNA and hence proteins or the parts needed for coding for making the products needed by that cell e.g. serotonin, dopamine etc. in nerve cell as opposed to keratin for instance in skin cells. This difference wouldn’t give genetic memory as it is reversible methylation of the DNA and this pattern of activation changes throughout the development of a blastocyst to an embryo to a fetus to a baby/child).


Hey, FH said it, not me.

Also personality and memory are (as far as it is known) found in the connections between neurons not the neurons themselves.


Really? I did not know that.

You should look for a geneticist not scientists – everybody is very specialised and may not have any idea about other disciplines and the longer they have been in a particular discipline the more likely this is.


When I have some free time...

I said it wasn't perfect. If I knew how he did it, I'd be prescient.

But if you have some idea it may mean your theory was more believable or at least indicate that you had thought it through. Why make up a theory that you don’t fully understand or that you can' justify?


Got a better one?

Seeing the future changes it, thus creating the future. It is my theory that the oracle creates a sphere of influence just by predicting it. One oracle is clouded by another's or a no-feild's.

I see that is what I thought you were going for however this still fails to explain the no-fields as they being mechanical cannot see and hence change the future.


So, you know how no-fields work? Tell us how the Ixian Navigation Machine works, too!

It is also my theory that Siona and her descendants are latent prescients and this shields them.

But if it is seeing the future that means they are capable of changing it, being latent prescients and hence ones that while capable do not in fact see the future would mean they would not be changing the future or in their current state of mind not have the ability and hence wouldn’t be shielded from prescience. Though I agree that Siona’s descendents have latent prescient abilities.
Though there is no indication in the books that anyone but a KH has the ability to alter the ‘paths’ people would take (change the future). (Teg a descendent of Sonia only ever see one path).
Though the only people we know that see such paths are Paul, Alia and Leto.
(Maybe the guildsmen, but then do they really see paths or just the one path where the ship arrives safe. Their oracle is rather interesting too.)


The act of observing just one path changes it.

OK

Does this mean you agree? :)


It means I don't want to argue about it. :wink:

You do realise though that the ‘quantum prescience’ and the ‘sphere of influence prescience’ must be mutually exclusive. Because even of the ‘projection’ meant a person took a different path then they would otherwise this would still be accounted for in the quantum and they wouldn’t be shielded.
For quantum prescience to be true shielding would be impossible. Though Paul is the only one that requires this explanation for his abilities within your theory (but fits in with the idea that Paul was different to the rest – more than a KH). So if you ignore Paul your theory is actually possible how you explain Paul just gets harder though.


Only in the realm of mathematics can you understand Muad'Dib's precise view of
the future. Thus: first, we postulate any number of point-dimensions in space.
(This is the classic n-fold extended aggregate of n dimensions.) With this
framework, Time as commonly understood becomes an aggregate of one-dimensional
properties. Applying this to the Muad'Dib phenomenon, we find that we either are
confronted by new properties of Time or (by reduction through the infinity
calculus) we are dealing with separate systems which contain n body properties.
For Muad'Dib, we assume the latter. As demonstrated by the reduction, the point
dimensions of the n-fold can only have separate existence within different
frameworks of Time. Separate dimensions of Time are thus demonstrated to
coexist. This being the inescapable case, Muad'Dib's predictions required that
he perceive the n-fold not as extended aggregate but as an operation within a
single framework. In effect, he froze his universe into that one framework which
was his view of Time.

-Palimbasha: Lectures at Sietch Tabr

I don’t get what you mean when you say ‘natural prescience’ at this stage do they actually see the future? And if you need mentat abilities to be prescient it would be impossible to predict the future i.e. have prescient dreams before gaining such abilities – though again this only fails to explain Paul – I also though part of your theory was that for prescience – however it works- was that they needed OM. So same thing as above, they wouldn’t be able to be prescient before gaining OM – fails to explain Paul and Teg.


Do you think anyone could be a mentat or must they have some natural skills that make it possible?


No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).

Sorry your wrong. Ghanima as male and female OM and doesn't become possessed, she in fact discovers a way to avoid possession - namely gaining her own personality seperate to OM and having a benelovent ancestor protect her. Leto on the other hand becomes possessed at least in part by the pharoah. Being posessed is a danger for all the pre-born as they cannot fully seperate themselve from OM. It seems to me like they are almost part of OM themselves.


Whatever, it's a minor point. Ghanima walling off her OM and being able to call it up when needed is no where near the same as having constant total recall and personas of your ancestors as in Leto's case. Wait, what was the point again?

Do you concede that the BG don’t actually know what’s in the place that terrifies them?


No, it's male OM

Do you have an idea why they are so terrified if it is merely male OM?


They avoid it for fear of possession.

Do you know why Paul claims to stare out of it?


Because David Lynch took too much LSD. :wink:

Pix :wink:

(I wish you'd put some spaces between your points or something, it'd make it easier to respond to.)

I'll admit it's possible the BT KH was a clone of Paul, I don't think it's likely.


No


I have to ask.

Done


Thanks!

and..
Progress?


For you, maybe. :P

Actually, from the evidence in the books it is the most likely.
I remember that the BG don’t know the specific genetic complement needed for a KH, because with Duncan in HoD/ChD they have full access to his DNA and still have no idea whether or not he is a KH. Teg is afraid they will kill him on suspicion of being a KH if he tells them he can see no-ships and the future – they already know his genetic code and certainly would have picked up that he wasn’t one and hence Teg would feel no threat.

So the only way for the BT to find such a sequence would be to start from Paul, work their way back, his father and mother, his grandfather etc. go through some trial and error – very time consuming stuff.
Then there is the added issue that the BT cannot create a KH ‘from scratch’ and have it still be a KH. As I explained before to be called a KH and individual must have prescient abilities and OM. A BT creation made from scratch would not have any ancestors being ‘new’ and hence would be incapable of OM.
Then for the BT it becomes a balancing act with adding the ‘KH genes’ to someone else’s genome. How much of the genome do these ‘KH genes’ take up? One would assume quite a lot but you never know. How much can you alter the original ‘donor’ genome before it becomes too different from the original to have OM? Can you alter it at all and still retain the potential to have OM?
There is no doubt the BT would have tried to do such things. (I’m thinking that the BT dwarf in DM (Barj?) which claims to have prescient abilities may have been a result of such experiments.)

Cloning Paul is by far the simplest (and fastest) solution for how they obtained a KH.
The BT may not have even had time between Dune and DM to create one from scratch, it would have required years of research.

Then there is what is says in the books.

"We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said.
"Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said. "Why did you sell him to us?"
"Because we once bred a Kwisatz Haderach of our own," Scytale said.
With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him.
"You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
"You didn't ask," Scytale said.
"How did you overcome your Kwisatz Haderach?" Irulan asked.
"A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation," Scytale said.
"I do not understand," Edric ventured.
"He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled.

How devious she must not guess, Scytale thought. When this is done, we will possess a Kwisatz Haderach we can control. These others will possess nothing.
"What was the origin of your Kwisatz Haderach?" the Reverend Mother asked.
"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."
"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.
"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


How does a BT creature created solely for research have “one particular representation of his selfdom”? How does a BT creation even have an antithesis that is more in line with what the BT want then their own personality? (i.e. being raised by the BT how can it have a personality contrary to the BT wants unless they were just messing with it which i unlikely considering whatever KH they made would also have to be one of them)

Then “we will possess a KH we can control” – fare enough controlling Paul through Chani (and Duncan?) but how come they couldn’t control the one they created in heir labs?

It makes sense if it is a clone of Paul that had remembered his past life (current life?).

Personally I think Scytale changes the subject to the talk of pure essences when asked about the origin of their KH. I don’t see how a KH in any form would be ‘pure essence’ i.e. the distillation of one particular aspect – prescience (and OM) would reveal too much for them to stay ‘pure’. Well that’s my evidence for it being a change of subject if you don’t think that way when reading the text. It looks to me like Scytale lead them away from the subject of the KH to that of the Baron.
(Irulan asked a really stupid question for a BG who should at least know something about the breeding programme)

So I'll say again - Cloning Paul is the simplest, fastest and most likely solution.


I don't think you understand the point of the scene. The BT KH is of minor importance. It's a plot device to establish the method in which they will try to defeat Paul. If you want to believe this fine, but I don't see it.

BTW, Irulan was not an important BG, not even a RM. She wouldn't have to have knowledge of the breeding program.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 26 Aug 2010 07:15

Freakzilla wrote:
You are talking about people who make sligs, chairdogs, face dancers and mentats. They "speak the language of God".

Now, would it be easier to make exactly what they wanted or to sneak onto Arrakis and steal cell samples from a prescient superman?

:think:


Right back at you.

We are also talking about the people you were unable to make spice a mere molecule for 10000 years or so (probably from the advent of the guild) which they only figured out after leto told them, after which they called him the prophet. Which fits nicely into their religion with the 'language of god' that was given to them by god.
I understood mentats to be a training thing not genetic, though people needed to be genetically appropriate - easy enough to get the material.
Sligs, chairdogs are simple recombinant or changes in the protiens expressed i.e. the simpilist and most easily understood part of our DNA.
Personally I think the face dancers may have been given to them in the whole language of god thing - case in point: while there was room for improvement they were only changed in the scattering and there is no guarentee that it was the BT in the scattering who made these improvements. In fact the only changes seen in the BT in terms of increase in knowledge are in DM with the regaining past lives something they were not sure of until it happened. Them learning how to create spice synthetically for Leto and then the expllosion of knowledge after the scattering - until then they are rather stagnant. Anyway I digress

Firstly they would have wanted Pauls DNA regardless and probably many other people besides (and we know they have the DNA as seen in ChD). They are geneticists they would want the DNA just as a reference, to study retrospectivey, to put in their library of genes etc.

You make it sound so simple 'make exactly what they wanted' - they did do that the question is how. Unless they had Paul's DNA (i.e. the genotype) all they know about the the KH is what they can observe which doesn't even scratch the surface of how complex a person is.

We know they got the DNA eventually.

They coudn't make spice and they had the very thing there and were unable to duplicate it why do yoou think they could just pull what is essentially the pinacle of human awareness out of thin air.

Genetics is no where near as simple as you seem to think it is.

Cloning paul is the simplist solution.

It doesn't have any impact on the story, why are you so against the idea?


Hey, FH said it, not me.

I was talking about actually biology as we understand it not about Dune. And what exactly did he say people have known DNA is the same in every somatic cell in the body since near the begining of genetic science.

Got a better one?
Yeah I do. :D

So, you know how no-fields work? Tell us how the Ixian Navigation Machine works, too!

It is still a machine so my point stands, and it is explain to a certain extent in the books - it is an extension of how the no rooms work. Absorbs radiation and gives it off in a pattern so it looks like nothings there. As for how it shield people from prescience I don't have a clue and it doesn't matter. If sheilding is by a prescient exerting influence a machine can neith be prescient or exert influence it only acts according to ts program. I think I only brought them up to back up my point that prescience cannot be quantum as it would ake sheilding impossible/not exist - in retrospect they have no relevence what-so-ever they work and thats all we're going to get - though it's interesting that Teg can see them.

The act of observing just one path changes it.

But they (the 'latents') don't see any path and therefore cannot change what they don't see. They don't see the future in any form.
Teg sees one path - this path comes true in contradiction to what you have written (which I think may be a paradox).

I was always under the impression that only the KH could 'change' anything others who saw potential paths (only Alia?) were only seeing the possibilities before the KH decided them - wasn't that what the whole 'take the vision from my father' scene with leto and paul about - leto taking the control from paul.

It means I don't want to argue about it. :wink:
fair enough


Only in the realm of mathematics can you understand Muad'Dib's precise view of
the future. Thus: first, we postulate any number of point-dimensions in space.
(This is the classic n-fold extended aggregate of n dimensions.) With this
framework, Time as commonly understood becomes an aggregate of one-dimensional
properties. Applying this to the Muad'Dib phenomenon, we find that we either are
confronted by new properties of Time or (by reduction through the infinity
calculus) we are dealing with separate systems which contain n body properties.
For Muad'Dib, we assume the latter. As demonstrated by the reduction, the point
dimensions of the n-fold can only have separate existence within different
frameworks of Time. Separate dimensions of Time are thus demonstrated to
coexist. This being the inescapable case, Muad'Dib's predictions required that
he perceive the n-fold not as extended aggregate but as an operation within a
single framework. In effect, he froze his universe into that one framework which
was his view of Time.

-Palimbasha: Lectures at Sietch Tabr

So paul selected the veiw of time he wanted i.e. he didn't predict the future he created it. I don't see quantum in this quote and it isn't relevant to most of what I was saying.

I don’t get what you mean when you say ‘natural prescience’ at this stage do they actually see the future? And if you need mentat abilities to be prescient it would be impossible to predict the future i.e. have prescient dreams before gaining such abilities – though again this only fails to explain Paul – I also though part of your theory was that for prescience – however it works- was that they needed OM. So same thing as above, they wouldn’t be able to be prescient before gaining OM – fails to explain Paul and Teg.


Do you think anyone could be a mentat or must they have some natural skills that make it possible?

Why should I answer your question if you haven't answered mine.

My understanding was the genetics determined potential, the training determined how close they came to mentat - the BG way results in certain mentat abilities for example. The abilities are a result of the environment they are brought up in - mentats are trained from birth right. I don't think Paul at the begining of the book has enough skill for it to be significant - he has been having the dreams for years.

What about the OM objection?

As far as I can see you alternate theory (i.e. different to the mechanism presented in the book) just creates more problems.
Isn't part of the premise that they see the future you don't need to try and explain it or just say that they can see more then the one dimension of time that we normally experience.
I see it as one of the fundamental facts of the Dune universe i.e. the part of the SciFi that you don't try and explain the existense of like OM of the fact that face dancers defy the laws of physics (or at least seem to - they change mass without apparent change in energy i.e. without causing a nuclear release of energy E=mc(squared) ).
Somewhere, somehow, someone within the dune unverse can see the future or sees time as a whole (and/or create their chosen future from possibilities).


Whatever, it's a minor point. Ghanima walling off her OM and being able to call it up when needed is no where near the same as having constant total recall and personas of your ancestors as in Leto's case. Wait, what was the point again?

What's the difference calling up when needed is total recall

Do you concede that the BG don’t actually know what’s in the place that terrifies them?


No, it's male OM

I repeat
How would they know if they have never looked?
The closest we have is Jessica who sees a cellular core and flashing swirling lights - neither of which seem like male OM.

Do you have an idea why they are so terrified if it is merely male OM?


They avoid it for fear of possession.

And so when during the 'parent game' Paul says through leto to Chani who is currently possessing Ghani 'leave or I will despise you' he is just making a big fuss over nothing.

Do you know why Paul claims to stare out of it?


Because David Lynch took too much LSD. :wink:

Thats's a 'no I do not know why FH chose to include this in Dune' then?

For you, maybe. :P
for neither obviously :)


I don't think you understand the point of the scene. The BT KH is of minor importance. It's a plot device to establish the method in which they will try to defeat Paul. If you want to believe this fine, but I don't see it.

I know the BT KH is not the point of the scene (it would only have minor importance if any in Dune 7, maybe)
(I just thought it was a interesting point with even more interesting conitations - like did hayt see the clone etc.)
(If they were trying to defeat Paul wouldn't that make cloning him more likely :P )

I understand the simplist, fastest, easiest and most efficient way for the BT to gain a KH you do not think likely.
Our difference in opinions is due to what you think the BT are capable of (though they show no evidence of such) which I can't help but feel is due to your apparent lack of understanding about genetics and its limitations.
Even if they knew exactly what to do cloning Pual is still easier, getting his cells wouldn't be hard its not like he was protecting them or anything and we kknow they eventually get them somehow. even if the BT are as great as you seem to think they are cloning Paul is still better - if the cloning process works 0% failure in contrast to an unknown, I also presume they have to wait a number of years to 'test' them at the very least to talk to them. A clone of Pual is guarenteed though they would no dobt have their own experiments delving into the 'gentetic mystery of the KH' also going at the same time.

BTW, Irulan was not an important BG, not even a RM. She wouldn't have to have knowledge of the breeding program.

Jessica was less important and she knew about it - sure she was ment to produce the KH's mother which she only learns about later but Irulan was meant to marry the guy.
Not like it matters anyway.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2010 08:13

We are also talking about the people you were unable to make spice a mere molecule for 10000 years or so (probably from the advent of the guild) which they only figured out after leto told them, after which they called him the prophet. Which fits nicely into their religion with the 'language of god' that was given to them by god.
I understood mentats to be a training thing not genetic, though people needed to be genetically appropriate - easy enough to get the material.
Sligs, chairdogs are simple recombinant or changes in the protiens expressed i.e. the simpilist and most easily understood part of our DNA.
Personally I think the face dancers may have been given to them in the whole language of god thing - case in point: while there was room for improvement they were only changed in the scattering and there is no guarentee that it was the BT in the scattering who made these improvements. In fact the only changes seen in the BT in terms of increase in knowledge are in DM with the regaining past lives something they were not sure of until it happened. Them learning how to create spice synthetically for Leto and then the expllosion of knowledge after the scattering - until then they are rather stagnant. Anyway I digress


- spice is not a mere molecule, which is why it took such a long time to create an artificial equivalent.
- Leto (II) told the BT how to make spice in their tanks? Then they made it for him? Wot?
Do you have quotes to back this up?
- Mentats are trained not genetically predisposed... but they need to be genetically predisposed? Make up your mind!
- Glad you find proteins chains to be "simpilist" :)
- the BT are stagnant by design, they chose to be that way(their secret language having not changed in thousands of years is proof of the dedication to not changing)


I was talking about actually biology as we understand it not about Dune
you're on a Dune forum, remember ;)

If sheilding is by a prescient exerting influence a machine can neith be prescient or exert influence it only acts according to ts program.


come again?
Just like that but how do you think the Ixian navigation machine reproduce what a Navigator does?
post.1: a Navigator uses prescience to plot the safest course
post.2: an IND uses the Holtzman generator to replace a Navigator

consequence: an IND by reproducing the prescience of a Navigator to fold space is indeed prescient.

nb: if it uses mathematical compilers to test the infinite possibilities and predict a future what would you call it? Projective science that imitates genetic prescience?

the BG way results in certain mentat abilities for example. The abilities are a result of the environment they are brought up in - mentats are trained from birth right. I don't think Paul at the begining of the book has enough skill for it to be significant - he has been having the dreams for years.


if the BG training imitates Mentats techniques it just means that some form of higher reasoning are needed in both Mentats and RMs.
At the beginning of the book Paul has enough skills to be a Mentat, but in order to achieve proper training the potential candidate must not be told until he is ready. The dreams are linked to his latent prescience and are not directly linked to his being a Mentat.

What's the difference calling up when needed is total recall

this is not a full sentence but I guess you're asking what is the difference between calling up OM and having a permanent and unbridled connection to it?
Well the answer is in the question ;)

In the first you just go find what you need, in the second you already are connected to what you need but to all the rest too...

And so when during the 'parent game' Paul says through leto to Chani who is currently possessing Ghani 'leave or I will despise you' he is just making a big fuss over nothing

you don't really believe that do you?

Our difference in opinions is due to what you think the BT are capable of (though they show no evidence of such) which I can't help but feel is due to your apparent lack of understanding about genetics and its limitations.


when we can make gholas and reawaken their pasts maybe that sentence will make sense, until then can you really compare the BT genetics to what we know of it?

Jessica was less important and she knew about it - sure she was ment to produce the KH's mother which she only learns about later but Irulan was meant to marry the guy.


what guy?
If jessica had carried a daughter she would have been bred with Feyd.
Irulan marrying Paul was just a side effect of Paul being a male.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SadisticCynic » 26 Aug 2010 08:37

About the spice:

Melange is a 'mere molecule', just a really big one. However you cannot equate creating spice with creating a KH. Spice is made during the worm cycle as a byproduct, and working from the molecule itself all the way back to DNA is going to be immensely awkward. Especially since you have to work back through several possible reactions that occur while it is lying in the sun.

On the other hand, the BT have had thousands of years of screwing with human DNA and seeing what happens. I don't have a quote but I'm pretty sure the BG more or less reckon that the BT are cheating. To be able to apply that knowledge to creating what they want seems to be a reasonable possibility; they do, after all, create twisted Mentats.
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Re:

Postby reverendmotherQ. » 03 Oct 2010 05:46

Freakzilla wrote:M/F OM + Mentat + Spice = Prescience


Equation craftiness! I like!

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 14 Oct 2010 03:13

lotek wrote:- spice is not a mere molecule, which is why it took such a long time to create an artificial equivalent.
- Leto (II) told the BT how to make spice in their tanks? Then they made it for him? Wot?
Do you have quotes to back this up?
- Mentats are trained not genetically predisposed... but they need to be genetically predisposed? Make up your mind!
- Glad you find proteins chains to be "simpilist" :)
- the BT are stagnant by design, they chose to be that way(their secret language having not changed in thousands of years is proof of the dedication to not changing)


So they are still stagnant and had been for thousands of years. I thought one of them themes of Dune was that stagnation or an inability to change led to predictability and destruction.

The Guild navigators, gifted with limited prescience, had made the fatal decision: they'd chosen always the clear, safe course that leads ever downward into stagnation. ~Dune

I didn’t say proteins were simple just that they were the simplest which when compared to the other things that are coded for in DNA. After all we almost understand how and why they work which is more than can be said for the rest.

Within the Dune universe to become a mentat an individual must have the genetic potential to be one (his isn’t actually stated so may not be true but most abilities in Dune have a genetic basis). However they will not become one unless they are trained to be one. Hence mentats are a result of training, just like a suk doctor or a BG.
This isn’t an issue, after all it is implied that the BT conduct psychological experiments. They know a person is not based solely on genetics.

The biggest objection I seem to be getting to my theory that the BT KH was a clone of Paul seems to be that I don’t think that the BT are some sort of ‘all knowing genetic gods’.
I did point out that even if the BT did know exactly how they were supposed to make a KH, cloning Paul is still the most efficient and only guaranteed way of producing a KH.

"Bargaining at last!" Taraza said. "We both know, of course, that I am offering breeding mothers of the Atreides line." And she thought: "Let him hope for that! They will look like Atreides but they will not be Atreides!"

Waff felt his pulse quicken. Was this possible? Did she have the slightest idea what the Tleilaxu might learn from an examination of such source material? ~HoD


To me it sounds like they know very little about the Atreides blood line. Then considering that the Atreides and the KH blood line are one in the same....

Spice is an extremely complicated molecule sure...
But if spice isn’t a molecule what is it?

you're on a Dune forum, remember ;)

I am aware; this is in reply to others previous posts.


come again?
Just like that but how do you think the Ixian navigation machine reproduce what a Navigator does?
post.1: a Navigator uses prescience to plot the safest course
post.2: an IND uses the Holtzman generator to replace a Navigator

consequence: an IND by reproducing the prescience of a Navigator to fold space is indeed prescient.

nb: if it uses mathematical compilers to test the infinite possibilities and predict a future what would you call it? Projective science that imitates genetic prescience?


I think you may be confused – the Holtzman engine/generator is what allows the ship to fold space what the navigators use as well.
The IND also only plots a safe course like the navigator though it doesn’t shield from prescience – this is done by the nullfields some other hardware and run by some other software.

Idaho's hands went to his console, fingers splayed in the comfield to grasp required elements of the circuit control. No time for niceties. Gross disruption. He was into the core within a second. From there, it was a simple matter to dump entire segments. Navigation went first. He saw the net begin to thin, the look of surprise on the man's face. Nullfields were next. Idaho felt the ship lurching in foldspace. The net tipped, becoming elongated with the two watchers foreshortened and thinned. Idaho wiped out star-memory circuits, taking his own data with them.

I don’t know how they work I just accept they do – though Teg can see no-ships and about three minutes into the future including those that presumably have the Sonia gene.
Anyway.
This was me trying to point out to Freak why his theory doesn’t make logical sense.
I subscribe to the idea that prescience is people actually seeing the future as it is described in the books.


if the BG training imitates Mentats techniques it just means that some form of higher reasoning are needed in both Mentats and RMs.
At the beginning of the book Paul has enough skills to be a Mentat, but in order to achieve proper training the potential candidate must not be told until he is ready. The dreams are linked to his latent prescience and are not directly linked to his being a Mentat.

I agree.
Again this is me pointing out ho Freak’s theory on prescience contradicts the books.
I think Paul was seeing the future, he has more abilities then people give him credit for.

What's the difference calling up when needed is total recall

this is not a full sentence but I guess you're asking what is the difference between calling up OM and having a permanent and unbridled connection to it?
Well the answer is in the question ;)

In the first you just go find what you need, in the second you already are connected to what you need but to all the rest too...

(Since when did grammar matter on the internet?)
I still maintain their was a barrier between Leto and OM that made the relationship with OM functionally the same as Ghani’s even if different language was used to describe it.
I mean if Leto was as connected as you say then the safaris of OM he went on seem rather pointless, or in fact wouldn’t be possible.
Then again we know there is a barrier between Leto and OM because when he loses it at the end of GEoD he goes insane.

And so when during the 'parent game' Paul says through leto to Chani who is currently possessing Ghani 'leave or I will despise you' he is just making a big fuss over nothing

you don't really believe that do you?


My apologies, I will not assume people will pick up on my obvious sarcasm in the future.
To clarify – No.
I was trying to point out to Freak that females not just males in OM could potentially possess the preborn.


when we can make gholas and reawaken their pasts maybe that sentence will make sense, until then can you really compare the BT genetics to what we know of it?


You seem to think genetics is rather simple; Frank Herbert wouldn’t and didn’t make this mistake. In fact didn’t he leave a lot of things like this undefined so people could make up their own minds/ideas/theories.
Personally, I don’t think it was the BT who figured out how to reawaken memories I think they were told.
We can clone people it is just considered to be ethically unallowable and as I mentioned in a previous post there is no logical basis in the real world for the reawakening of memories as described in Dune.



Jessica was less important and she knew about it - sure she was ment to produce the KH's mother which she only learns about later but Irulan was meant to marry the guy.


what guy?
If jessica had carried a daughter she would have been bred with Feyd.
Irulan marrying Paul was just a side effect of Paul being a male.


The KH. Irulan was raised to be the wife of the KH hence the “for this I was trained”. Jessica was as far as she knew (and was meant to know) unconnected to the KH and she was still told. Irulan on the other hand was being trained to be the wife of the KH, presumably she knew who he was.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SadisticCynic » 14 Oct 2010 05:22

Regarding that last point: Paul was not expected to be the KH. I find it more probable that "for this I was trained" refers to Irulan (supposedly) being able to influence the throne from the position of wife. This allows the BG a strong, but silent, political influence and was the purpose of denying Shaddam any sons.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby reverendmotherQ. » 17 Oct 2010 11:14

Ayat wrote:
lotek wrote:- spice is not a mere molecule, which is why it took such a long time to create an artificial equivalent.
- Leto (II) told the BT how to make spice in their tanks? Then they made it for him? Wot?
Do you have quotes to back this up?
- Mentats are trained not genetically predisposed... but they need to be genetically predisposed? Make up your mind!
- Glad you find proteins chains to be "simpilist" :)
- the BT are stagnant by design, they chose to be that way(their secret language having not changed in thousands of years is proof of the dedication to not changing)


So they are still stagnant and had been for thousands of years. I thought one of them themes of Dune was that stagnation or an inability to change led to predictability and destruction.


But the BT are another example of how that stagnation is possible. Don't you see? The BT followed a dogma through all they did that led them to create the product of what happens when one follows any dogma blindly - a limited human product (or products). These BT products are limited in a similar way that Paul was even though Jessica's betrayal to the sister hood gave him more of an advantage over what the BG planned Kwisatz Haderach would have had to face - the consequences of Bene Gesserit "perfect timing."

Conclusion: The BT and the BG thought control was the answer to creating the best human product. Paul's son Leto II knew from his access to OM, which was unlimited in his ancestral memories, that this pattern was repeated time after time again throughout history as shown by institutions like the BG and the BT. He knew that from his own father's experiences - which he had access to.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 18 Dec 2010 04:07

Regarding that last point: Paul was not expected to be the KH. I find it more probable that "for this I was trained" refers to Irulan (supposedly) being able to influence the throne from the position of wife. This allows the BG a strong, but silent, political influence and was the purpose of denying Shaddam any sons.



Sorry if that was unclear. The “for this I was trained” is actually a quote from Irulan.



But the BT are another example of how that stagnation is possible. Don't you see? The BT followed a dogma through all they did that led them to create the product of what happens when one follows any dogma blindly - a limited human product (or products). These BT products are limited in a similar way that Paul was even though Jessica's betrayal to the sister hood gave him more of an advantage over what the BG planned Kwisatz Haderach would have had to face - the consequences of Bene Gesserit "perfect timing."

Conclusion: The BT and the BG thought control was the answer to creating the best human product. Paul's son Leto II knew from his access to OM, which was unlimited in his ancestral memories, that this pattern was repeated time after time again throughout history as shown by institutions like the BG and the BT. He knew that from his own father's experiences - which he had access to.



I don’t see what you are objecting to sorry.
The point I was trying to make was that the BT were stagnant and therefore unlikely to come up with new ideas. A stagnant organisation such as the BT (stagnant and unwilling to change) would be incapable of coming up with a way of creating anything new (e.g. synthetic spice, a ‘new’ KH etc.).

I do agree with you though that the BG are another example of stagnation, I cannot actually think of an organisation in the Dune universe that isn’t.

Your post does bring up other interesting points though.

One being the circumstance of Paul’s birth.
From appendix III – a report on BG motives and purposes we have:

“She [Jessica] was a Bene Gesserit born and trained, and should have been a willing tool of the project.
... Instead for reasons she confesses have never been completely clear to her, the concubine Lady Jessica defied her orders and bore a son.
This alone should have alerted the Bene Gesserit to the possibility that a wild variable had entered their scheme.”
(Italics are as they appear in the book)

There are two interesting implications that can be drawn from this
1 (Only a KH could have subverted the BG in such a way as what happened to Jessica and hence) The KH had a role in his own conception.
2 Leading on from this the conclusion that a KH has the ability to influence all of time i.e. the KH only needs to be born in one time to influence both the relative future and the relative past (and therefore be able to bring about his own birth).
3 also implied is that only a KH would be capable of subverting a BG such as Jessica to disobey the sisterhood.

From the language surrounding Paul within Dune it is clear that Paul has trouble distinguishing the past from the present from the future, further backing up this point. Also notice when talking about his prescience Paul says he sees the present rather than the future in particular which is consistent with someone who sees all time as one.
Interestingly the same language does not surround Leto rather prescience is the future and it is OM that provides his knowledge of the past.

Also in your conclusion there don’t forget that Paul also had access to OM and would have known exactly what Leto II did. Paul does not put much emphasis on OM however, in contrast to his son. The differences between the two bring up some rather intriguing questions.
Consider, we know what Paul does because he is shown doing it, we see the conclusion of his thoughts but not the process, we only guess. Think of the period before Paul goes and willingly gets his eyes burned out by the stone burner, he has determined this is the only possible path to take yet are only told that the alternatives are even more terrible nothing more. In contrast, we do not know what it is that Leto does and can only guess, however we know why he is doing it (most of CD and GEoD is an example of this).

I also don’t think it would have mattered if Paul had arrive to the BG’s timing considering that only a KH is capable of subverting the BG (as mentioned above). So they wouldn’t have been able to stop him anyway.

I think this is an important point in consideration of the enemy of HoD and CHD considering that we know the Honoured Matres to be composed in part of subverted BG combined with the knowledge that no BG ever returned from the scattering.

Also thinking about shielding isn’t it interesting that Paul is taken away from the Fremen by Chani in one of the water of life sessions because he makes them see things. In effect it is the opposite of shielding. Though it is implied that the Fremen have limited prescience which connects them as a people rather than separating them as you would expect the shielding phenomena too.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby MasterOfAssassins » 25 Sep 2012 05:04

Ridiculous. Never do the Bene Tleixalu even hint that they cloned' Paul to produce their Kwisatz Haderach. It was a separate, preceding strain. The BT & BG both produced an equivalent product through opposing methods and source material. Another contradiction proved true. The fact that Duncan was the final Kwisatz Haderach (old-untouched/new-supremely modified...the only Dune 7 revelation I feel rings true) seems to prove it. Anybody can be 'super' but only the lucky few (or the one) survive. Another impossibly true contradiction known as reality. Hit the spice & think about it.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby MasterOfAssassins » 25 Sep 2012 05:28

Clarification: Mentats are not genetically predisposed, they're trained from birth, just unconsciously (remember, even Paul didn't figure out he was being trained as a mentat. It was a total shock.)
In Dune, opposites oppose and mimic each other
Herbert was trying to tear down genetic determinism. Super/posthumanity is available to anyone who feels it deeply and completely in their soul. Hwi Noree was the opposite of her uncle Malky because she thought she was. Paul and Jessica were Atreides exemplars because they were raised extraordinarily right and felt it, even though genetically they were Harkonnen. Duncan represented wild humanity, which is indistinguishable from super humanity. Love actually conquers all, even oneself. Anyone could become Leto (i.e., God) if they're willing to lose their humanity (but it's so physically antithetical to the human condition it's the equivalent of drowning to breathe or being consumed by flame to survive...over thousands of years). The message was, depend on your own experience and soul, all else is overwhelmingly false.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2012 08:06

MasterOfAssassins wrote:Clarification: Mentats are not genetically predisposed, they're trained from birth, just unconsciously (remember, even Paul didn't figure out he was being trained as a mentat. It was a total shock.)


Potential mentats had to have capacity to begin with. Not any moron could be a mentat.

Hwi Noree was the opposite of her uncle Malky because she thought she was.


Hwi was an opposite-clone of Malky:

Leto raised a hand to silence Moneo. "Will you tell me, Malky? About Hwi?"
"Just a few tiny cells from my body," Malky said. "Then the carefully nurtured
growth and education-everything an exact opposite to your old friend, Malky. We
did it all in the no-room where you cannot see!"


Paul and Jessica were Atreides exemplars because they were raised extraordinarily right and felt it, even though genetically they were Harkonnen.


Jessica was raised by the Bene Gesserit, Paul was Atreides because his father was Duke Leto.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2012 08:07

MasterOfAssassins wrote:Herbert was trying to tear down genetic determinism.


:lol:

You obviously didn't read the same Dune series that I did.

:snooty:
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Re:

Postby leagued » 09 Feb 2013 06:30

Freakzilla wrote:

*As noted several times in the book(s), mentat projections are only as good as the info they're fed...one of FH's reasons for the failure of machines? No doubt. It's been said a machine can't predict what humanity might need.


Memories of all your ancestors is pretty good info to make future projections on, if you ask me.

I dont think it's purely mathematical or logical. I think OM is the data base. With that and the awareness expanding spice, a mentat can make projections of all possible futures.

Kind of like the theory in physics that if we knew the location and motion of every particle in the universe, we could plot out the where they were in the past and where they will be in the future. The problem for normal people is, the more accurately you measure one, the more uncertain the other becomes.[/quote]

You're referring to Laplace's Demon and it is not a theory of physics, at least not one with any validity in a post-Heisenberg world.
Its also not so much a matter than one part of a Heisenberg pair becomes "more uncertain", just that there are limits to how well both can be known in any given measurement (velocity-position, time-energy, a few others). And it is not a matter observation either (though the observer effect also limits our ability to measure things accurately i.e. you can't bounce a photon off a subatomic particle to "look at it" w/out disturbing it). The Heisenberg effect exists with or without us attempting to measure something and regardless of any possible measuring breakthrough.
All this is to say that no matter what kind of past data you have, you can't predict a future accurately in a prescient-like manner based on that concept.

However... if you were looking at the universe as a quantum waveform from a sidereal timeframe you would collapse the waveform and "lock" it into a single solution. For instance, before measurement the quantum waveform of an electron orbiting a hydrogen atom has a near-infinite set of solutions, some of which place it within a a few atomic diameters of the "parent" nucleus and some of which place it at a radius greater than the solar system's diameter; but when we "observe" the electron, we lock it into a single solution for the length of time that we observe it.

This is how I like to think of prescience- especially when FH talks about how the Oracle "creates the future"; he's observing a single solution to the quantum waveform of the universe, collapsing it into one path and then holding it there by constant observation.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Feb 2013 07:13

Thanks for the correction. I like your idea better. :D
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby leagued » 09 Feb 2013 07:20

I live to serve.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 09 Feb 2013 07:43

exist ;)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby cafihapa » 17 Aug 2013 13:20

Did we ever reach an agreement on what, precisely, makes a Kwisatz Haderach? I read the entire thread thoroughly (I believe) but I never seemed to see everyone agreeing on the definition.

Before I even attempt to define what a KH is, or what it means, I'd like to run several points past everyone to see if we all agree on them.

"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory -- in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past . . . but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot -- into both feminine and masculine pasts."
"Your Kwisatz Haderach?"
"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men have tried the drug . . . so many, but none has succeeded."


We can gather from this that the KH is:

Male.

Capable of accessing OM of both male and female ancestry (not necessarily unlimited, definitely, however)

"You didn't want a son!" he said. "You wanted a Kwisatz Haderach! You wanted a male Bene Gesserit!"


This reaffirms that the KH must be male.

Bene Gesserit however? Scytale mentions in DM that they bred a KH. See:


"Because we once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale said.
With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him. "You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
"You didn't ask," Scytale said.


I mention this because of the discussion about the BT cloning Paul - this passage definitely states that their KH was bred, and we can conclude that their KH was not a clone of Paul. I find the word choice bred to be highly specific (I think we can all agree Herbert was terribly precise in his word choices, but was still only human) and therefore believe that the BT actually bred a KH - they didn't simply manipulate the genes of a human into a KH in one shot, like they did with crafting sligs, etc.

So, does a KH need to be BG? I believe not. So far, the only evidence we have is that a KH must be able to access OM of both male and female ancestry.

"When I had the drop in my mouth, when I felt it and smelled it, when I knew what it was doing to me, then I knew I could do the thing that you have done," he said. "Your Bene Gesserit proctors speak of the Kwisatz Haderach, but they cannot begin to guess the many places I have been. In the few minutes I . . . " He broke off, looking at Chani with a puzzled frown. "Chani? How did you get here? You're supposed to be . . . Why are you here?"


From this passage, we can conclude that the ability to transmute the Water of Life is what brings forth the latent KH powers, and also gives some meaning to the phrase, "The one who can be many places at once." I don't find it conclusive, however, but highly suggestive. Also suggestive in the sense that Paul, and Leto, (BT KH aside, we don't have anything other than Scytale's mention, no evidence that the BT KH drowned the maker) had access to ALL of their OM, on both sides. This theory is supported further by this quote (although it doesn't add to our definition of the KH):

"How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked. "There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts a new shape on hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."


Now, it begins to get a bit interesting.

He looked beyond Feyd-Rautha then, attracted by a movement, seeing there a narrow, weaselish face he'd never before encountered -- not in time or out of it. It was a face he felt he should know and the feeling carried with it a marker of fear.
Why should I fear that man? he wondered.
He leaned toward his mother, whispered: "That man to the left of the Reverend Mother, the evil-looking one -- who is that?"
Jessica looked, recognizing the face from her Duke's dossiers. "Count Fenring," she said. "The one who was here immediately before us. A genetic-eunuch . . . and a killer."


Fenring must have had a touch of prescience about him, for Paul to be blind to him. There is no other explanation that I can possibly think of for this fact.

Paul, aware of some of this from the way the time nexus boiled, understood at last why he had never seen Fenring along the webs of prescience. Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern -- a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion. A deep compassion for the Count flowed through Paul, the first sense of brotherhood he'd ever experienced.


Talent. Talent for what? Potential talent to become a KH? Talent for prescience? I don't believe we can decide, definitively, what the talent is specifically. But, it's well established in that quote that Fenring was so close to being the KH - he was well trained, and well bred, that much we can be sure of - he was capable of besting Paul in combat, and Paul was the epitome of the BG breeding program to this point, tutored by Halleck and Idaho and trained by his witch mother.

Here's another quote, that I'm not entirely sure of (if you can't tell yet, I'm pretty much ctrl-f "kwisatz haderach" and using anything from the text that's remotely applicable):

The parallel between this and the Kwisatz Haderach is readily seen. The Kwisatz Haderach that the Sisterhood sought through its breeding program was interpreted as "The shortening of the way" or "The one who can be two places simultaneously."
But both of these interpretations can be shown to stem directly from the Commentaries: "When law and religious duty are one, your selfdom encloses the universe."


This muddies the water as much as it clears it up when trying to understand what "The one who can be two/many places at once," actually means. Is it referring to joining law and religion, like Muad'Dib did? Or is it more of a reference to Paul's direct access to both male and female OM? Both, perhaps?

The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.
They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. Now, attend these facts carefully:


Ahh, here we have the first direct mention (I believe, feel free to correct me fellas!) of joining the abilities of a Mentat to the OM that a KH must, of necessity, possess. A super mentat. And not just to mention that, but some confusion about using "higher order dimensions," which I believe strongly indicates the ability to access the Oracle and the prescience granted by the spice. I'm totally open to debate and input on this, however.

And, the final quote, which has scene some good display so far in this thread:

KWISATZ HADERACH: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.


This is really interesting to me, because it comes directly from the dictionary at the ass end of the novel. There can be serious questions as to whether or not this is written in Irulan's voice, or someone else's, as well, see:

Terminology of the Imperium

In studying the Imperium, Arrakis, and the whole culture which produced Muad'Dib, many unfamiliar terms occur. To increase understanding is a laudable goal, hence the definitions and explanations given below.


Male Bene Gesserit (check, check!) whose organic mental powers (Mentat much?) would bridge space and time (prescience).

*coughs, drinks his coffee, excuses himself to smoke a cigarette, or two*

So.

The KH must be male. He also must possess Other Memory, of both male and female variety, and presumably, utterly unfettered as well. I believe these two points are absolutely established. The ones up for debate are whether or not the KH must be prescient and a mentat.

I think we can get down to the nitty gritty of whether or not a KH must be a mentat or possessed of prescience by examining the other known KH - Leto II.

"Careful, Muriz," Leto cautioned. "I know about you. It was in your history that you took the water of unwary travelers. By now this would be common ritual with you. How else could you silence the ones who chanced upon you? How else keep your secret? Batigh! You'd seduce me with gentle epithets and kindly words. Why waste any of my water upon the sand? And if I were missed as were many of the others -- well, the Tanzerouft got me."
Muriz made the Horns-of-the-Worm sign with his right hand to ward off the Rihani which Leto's words called up. And Leto, knowing how older Fremen distrusted mentats or anything which smacked of them by a show of extended logic, suppressed a smile.


This is the first mention of the word mentat in CoD that includes the word Leto and the word mentat in the same sentence that I've been able to find by searching my text. In fact, it's the only time that the word mentat is used in either CoD or GEoD that includes the word Leto and mentat in the same sentence. This, however, is not definitive. Perhaps Herbert thought that it went without mentioning that Leto II was a mentat? Paul was, and Leto possessed every memory that his father had up until his conception, from birth and before. Although only Alia is mentioned to have been practicing skills given to them by OM, we have some interesting suggestions as well:

Leto sat playing a small baliset which had been sent to him on his fifth birthday by that consummate artist of the instrument, Gurney Halleck. In four years of practice, Leto had achieved a certain fluency, although the two bass side strings still gave him trouble.


Surely Leto (leaving Ghanima aside for the moment) would not neglect practicing skills he had OM of, if he was practicing something as inconsequential as the baliset. Jessica's thoughts:

Oddly, Jessica's thoughts were moving in a similar vein as she talked to her granddaughter. She'd been thinking how difficult it must be to carry mature minds in immature bodies. The body would have to learn what the mind already knew it could do -- aligning responses and reflexes. The old Bene Gesserit prana-bindu regimen would be available to them, but even there the mind would run where the flesh could not.


A definitive quote on Leto using skills he had access to from OM (I don't believe more than one is required):

Stop! he commanded himself. He fell into the prana-bindu forced relaxation, gathering his senses into the pool of consciousness. This focused the inward ripples of the constant-now through which he experienced Time, and he allowed the vision-elation to warm him. The membrane worked precisely as the vision had predicted.


Leto was male, had access to OM, and was without a doubt prescient. We have no proof (correct me guys!) that he was trained as a mentat, however. Paul was only partially trained, however, and still became one. I think it stands to reason that Leto was self trained as well - easily overcoming the training that is supposedly required from birth. This still doesn't answer whether or not it is ACTUALLY required to be a KH.

Phew. I wrote all this out, and I'm still kinda confused. I dunno.

Thoughts?

Also, be nice guys - first post on the forum aside from introducing myself, so if I've committed any errors in etiquette or covered things that have already been mentioned, I beg forgiveness. I'd just like to get discussion flowing again, and it's been a while since I've written anything this heavy on Dune, so, it's nice to get back in the flow.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Naïve mind » 18 Aug 2013 01:19

cafihapa wrote:Did we ever reach an agreement on what, precisely, makes a Kwisatz Haderach? I read the entire thread thoroughly (I believe) but I never seemed to see everyone agreeing on the definition.


as I wanted to answer your post, I just read the entire thread as well. It disabused me of the notion of anyone ever agreeing on anything. However, my beliefs about the KH are best summed up by A thing of Eternity's post.

A KH is male other memory, and little more. I base myself on the passage about Paul's awakening in the desert.


As though he saw inside her mind, Paul said: "They thought they were reaching for me. But I'm not what they expected, and I've arrived before my time. And they don't know it."
Jessica pressed her hands to her mouth.
Great Mother! He's the Kwisatz Haderach!
She felt exposed and naked before him, realizing then that he saw her with eyes from which little could be hidden. And that, she knew, was the basis of her fear.
"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."



At this point, Paul seems to be fully prescient (to an extent that at least matches that of Guild Navigators, and probably much more), and suddenly in control of his Mentat abilities. OM, however, doesn't arrive until much later.

So I would argue that the overcharged prescience is the "unexpected" part of his abilities.

As for the definition that the KH's mental abilities 'can bridge space and time': memory bridges space and time.

cafihapa wrote:
He looked beyond Feyd-Rautha then, attracted by a movement, seeing there a narrow, weaselish face he'd never before encountered -- not in time or out of it. It was a face he felt he should know and the feeling carried with it a marker of fear.
Why should I fear that man? he wondered.
He leaned toward his mother, whispered: "That man to the left of the Reverend Mother, the evil-looking one -- who is that?"
Jessica looked, recognizing the face from her Duke's dossiers. "Count Fenring," she said. "The one who was here immediately before us. A genetic-eunuch . . . and a killer."


Fenring must have had a touch of prescience about him, for Paul to be blind to him. There is no other explanation that I can possibly think of for this fact.


I like to think--even though there's nothing in the books to support this--that Fenring is more like Siona than like a Guild navigator. There's no cone of uncertainty about him, there's just nothing to tip off a prescient. They're simply not bound by prescient vision, retaining free will whatever future is predicted.

This would also have given Leto the certainty that it was possible to breed for such a trait.

Again, this is a personal belief, and I don't think it is cemented in any way by the book.

cafihapa
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby cafihapa » 18 Aug 2013 02:14

Nice grab on this quote:

Great Mother! He's the Kwisatz Haderach!
She felt exposed and naked before him, realizing then that he saw her with eyes from which little could be hidden. And that, she knew, was the basis of her fear.
"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."


I'll counter with Paul's response at the end of Dune:

"How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked. "There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts a new shape on hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat. Presently, she said; "Once you denied to me that you were the Kwisatz Haderach."
Paul shook his head. "I can deny nothing any more." He looked up into her eyes. "The Emperor and his people come now. They will be announced any moment. Stand beside me. I wish a clear view of them. My future bride will be among them."


The second quote definitely emphasizes the role that OM plays in the making of a KH - such a heavy emphasis on the billions and billions of lives that Paul has access to.

As to prescience, I recently remembered a quote from DM, that is not be any means definitive, can be construed to be suggestive:

"You forget, Guildsman, that we once made a kwisatz haderach. This is a being filled by the spectacle of Time. It is a form of existence which cannot be threatened without enclosing yourself in the identical threat. Muad'dib knows we would attack his Chani. We must move faster than we have. You must get to the ghola, prod him as I have instructed."


Frank was very specific with choosing his words, and the fact that he chose the word "Time," instead of history is interesting, although not conclusive by any means. Paul experienced those billions of lives as "Time," not as history, considering he actually lived them. However, I think that the sentences that follow lay a heavier emphasis on the role that prescience plays, to a degree - without enclosing yourself in the identical threat, as well as the reference to the conspiracy attacking Chani.

Seeing as this is easily one of the most confusing topics of the series, I'm not at all surprised that there is no general consensus on what it means. Just trying to stir the pot up some ^_^

Anyone else wanna take a stab at it?

I'm also working on my umpteenth read through, as well, incited by this topic, so we'll see if I hit any passages with hidden meanings I might've missed before.

EDIT: Note. As far as I know, everyone here agrees that to be the KH, you must be 1) male and 2) have access to both male and female OM. The debate is whether or not prescience and being a Mentat plays into status as KH. If you don't agree, please register your dissent!

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Naïve mind
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Naïve mind » 18 Aug 2013 04:46

Well, I'd like to add that the Kwisatz Haderach is male because he is defined to be "a male bene Gesserit". It's obvious from the novels that Ghanima and Leto were equal in abilities, that Alia eventually gained the ability to search both male and female lines, and that Siona, too, could have initiated a Leto-style transformation.

cafihapa
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby cafihapa » 18 Aug 2013 05:31

Both Leto and Alia fell to Abomination, which Ghanima avoided through locking away her memories when Leto went off to find Jacurutu.

Which makes me wonder - weren't all former Abominations also KH before they fell to Abomination, then..?

Sorry I'm not sourcing this - I will if need be, but the first post took it out of me.


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