Jessica's mother

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redbugpest
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby redbugpest » 28 Oct 2009 12:32

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.


Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?

Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.


You have been drinking to much from your "ignorance" bottle today haven't you. Or are you truly just THAT stupid?


Bleh - you just want to be an ass pick a fight - so I am gonna ignore you....
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Serkanner » 28 Oct 2009 12:38

redbugpest wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.


Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?

Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.


You have been drinking to much from your "ignorance" bottle today haven't you. Or are you truly just THAT stupid?


Bleh - you just want to be an ass pick a fight - so I am gonna ignore you....
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Pick a fight with you? Man I wish you would be run over by an eighteen wheeler, yes, but you are really not worth a fight. I like calling you names, yes, but that is just because you are so obviously too stupid to grasp anything about Dune ... even after 3+ readings.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby insidiom » 28 Oct 2009 14:08

i have always interpreted a BG's/pre-born's use of OM to be both voluntary and involuntary. they have access to those memories and the memories act as if they are sentient, at times; providing information (useful or not) to the individual. my understanding is that any of the characters who went through the agony would be able to find out any information they wanted, if they chose to.

what is the mohiam issue? is that the discrepancy between FH and KJA where Vladimir gets fat? (rape disease vs overindulgence)

i suppose i have more forum browsing to do?
or should i have just kept the browbeating going by saying that my paul of dune screen saver rules? :dance:
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2009 14:17

insidiom wrote:i have always interpreted a BG's/pre-born's use of OM to be both voluntary and involuntary. they have access to those memories and the memories act as if they are sentient, at times; providing information (useful or not) to the individual. my understanding is that any of the characters who went through the agony would be able to find out any information they wanted, if they chose to.


That's the way I see it too. However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.

In times of need OM is forced and at all times ancestral personnas can offer advice.

what is the mohiam issue? is that the discrepancy between FH and KJA where Vladimir gets fat? (rape disease vs overindulgence)


The other side has posited that OM is merely memory and not actual fact, that memories can be distorted.

i suppose i have more forum browsing to do?


Of course! :wink:

or should i have just kept the browbeating going by saying that my paul of dune screen saver rules? :dance:


I'd have kept that to yourself. :lol:
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 28 Oct 2009 17:36

redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.


sorry, but you are a clown. re-read the books. I'm up to my third time and I'm still picking up new stuff.

how do you think Ghanima knew that the Baron was her grandfather? Do you think she would really search out this information in her OM and not find out who her grandmother was - an equally interesting fact...


Like I said, there is no consistency as far as I can see. I am continuing to look into it, since OM interests me.

BTW, I have read the books more than three times and am still looking for answers to things I find in them, so I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..

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that's funny - I mentioned 3 times more as a self-effacing statement than bragging... maybe an "only" would have assisted in the clarity of my statement.

it is sad that you have read these books so many times and can't grasp OM.

What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2009 17:41

SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.


:cylon101: Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.

The BG consider it abomination because the pre-born do not have their own indivdual persona or BG training to deal with OM.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 28 Oct 2009 17:44

Freakzilla wrote:
SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.


:cylon101: Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.


ok- that makes sense - Alia obviously had male OM too (the Baron)...
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Nekhrun » 28 Oct 2009 17:45

redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.

FH "waffled" huh? Try reading Children of Dune again. There are clear reasons why Leto, Ghanima and Alia have very different experiences with OM.

Maybe the reason you're "still struggling with what the answer really is" is because you need to read/re-read/understand FH's writings.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2009 17:48

SimonH wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.


:cylon101: Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.


ok- that makes sense - Alia obviously had male OM too (the Baron)...


Females are vulnerable to dominant, malignant male personas because they are givers and males are takers.

Ghanima overcame this through self-hypnosis.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2009 17:53

The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM. :wink:
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SandChigger » 28 Oct 2009 19:02

redbugpest wrote:I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..

And Englisk war his mither tingue. :laughing:

He IS al-Lisan al-Ghabi! :shock:
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Omphalos » 28 Oct 2009 19:05

redbugpest wrote:I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..


He am is to am.

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby TheDukester » 28 Oct 2009 21:10

Reading Dune, I am. — Yoda
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby insidiom » 29 Oct 2009 01:05

Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.



not that the thread started out this way........
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. :shifty: either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.

but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.

i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 29 Oct 2009 02:27

Freakzilla wrote:The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM. :wink:


yes, I always thought that the BG's COULD look into male ancestral other memory, but they did not dare due to the risk of being taken over. And the only reason they could block this, was having a strong personality of their own.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 07:49

insidiom wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.



not that the thread started out this way........
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. :shifty: either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.

but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.

i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.


I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.

They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... :drool: ), her mother would have been the very first one.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 07:50

nampigai wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM. :wink:


yes, I always thought that the BG's COULD look into male ancestral other memory, but they did not dare due to the risk of being taken over. And the only reason they could block this, was having a strong personality of their own.


Exactly, when Paul wants to look into his masculine OM, it is Jessica who shows him where it is.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby insidiom » 29 Oct 2009 07:58

Freakzilla wrote:
insidiom wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.



not that the thread started out this way........
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. :shifty: either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.

but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.

i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.


I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.

They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... :drool: ), her mother would have been the very first one.



"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."

"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH


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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 29 Oct 2009 08:21

And Paul when talking to Mohiam in the end of “Dune” telling her “Try looking in that place where you dare not look! You will find me there, staring back at you!” That part have always made me wonder though. Did he say that as a matter of speech to tell that he had OM or could he actually get into her head? It’s been a while since I read Dune, but I do remember that Mohiam in the movie yells “get out of my head!” I don’t exactly recall if it was in the book or not?

In Ghanima’s case I believe she had Chani “sitting” at the gate, saving her from the fate of Alia. And I believe Leto II cut of a deal with the "stronger" personalities in his OM, that "they" had a task! And Harum was their spokesman. Jebus, when I'm done with the books I can start all over again.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 08:55

nampigai wrote:And Paul when talking to Mohiam in the end of “Dune” telling her “Try looking in that place where you dare not look! You will find me there, staring back at you!” That part have always made me wonder though. Did he say that as a matter of speech to tell that he had OM or could he actually get into her head?


I think he was telling her that he was the KH.

It’s been a while since I read Dune, but I do remember that Mohiam in the movie yells “get out of my head!” I don’t exactly recall if it was in the book or not?


"That child is an abomination!" the old woman said. "Her mother deserves a
punishment greater than anything in history. Death! It cannot come too quickly
for that child or for the one who spawned her!" The old woman pointed a finger
at Alia. "Get out of my mind!"


I don't think this had anything to do with OM, Alia seemed to have some kind of TP ability... which FH never mentions again. Unless you count Paul using Leto II's infant eyes in the end of DM.

In Ghanima’s case I believe she had Chani “sitting” at the gate, saving her from the fate of Alia.


At first, but latter she blocked off all OM through hypnosis.

And I believe Leto II cut of a deal with the "stronger" personalities in his OM, that "they" had a task! And Harum was their spokesman. Jebus, when I'm done with the books I can start all over again.


That was how he kept control at first but eventually he had to integrate all of those ancestral personas into his own and he became a composit of them all.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 29 Oct 2009 10:48

Sorry for not quoting, but my browser have some problems when the text box is full.

I think you’re right about the part where Paul tells Mohiam he’s the KH. It has always made me wonder though, if he could use TP.

You’re right that it was Alia who was “in” Mohiams head. It was all blurred in my head.

As for Leto II I don’t fully agree, I think even tough he “is” everyone within his OM, it is still Leto who is at the steering wheel.
When he weeps over Hwi after he first met her (the part where the one Fish Speaker says "The sins of the universe would trouble anyone.") he’s having a “discussion” (or that’s how I read it) with his OM.
He’s eaten up by self-pity over the fact that he could never “be” with her. Leto II says to hell with the GP and they laugh at him and remind him, that they have a task to do – a “deal”! I read that like: “if you don’t do what we agreed upon, we will revolt!” Do I make any sense at all, I’ve had way too much coffee and been in meetings all day?
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 10:56

nampigai wrote:Sorry for not quoting, but my browser have some problems when the text box is full.


Mine too. I just noticed last night it did the same thing on my friends computer.

:(

I think you’re right about the part where Paul tells Mohiam he’s the KH. It has always made me wonder though, if he could use TP.

You’re right that it was Alia who was “in” Mohiams head. It was all blurred in my head.

As for Leto II I don’t fully agree, I think even tough he “is” everyone within his OM, it is still Leto who is at the steering wheel.


THAT is the deal he made with his ancestral personas. HE is their window onto the living universe and without him they wouldn't exist.

When he weeps over Hwi after he first met her (the part where the one Fish Speaker says "The sins of the universe would trouble anyone.") he’s having a “discussion” (or that’s how I read it) with his OM.
He’s eaten up by self-pity over the fact that he could never “be” with her. Leto II says to hell with the GP and they laugh at him and remind him, that they have a task to do – a “deal”! I read that like: “if you don’t do what we agreed upon, we will revolt!” Do I make any sense at all, I’ve had way too much coffee and been in meetings all day?


You're absolutely right.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 11:00

You have to remember that the "ancestral personas" and "their memories" are two facets of OM. Not only can RMs/KH recall their ancestors memories in first person as if they had lived that life, they can also converse with that ancestor.

One of the things I found extremely interesting regarding OM was how Duke Leto and Baron Harkonnen were fighting in Leto II's OM:

He could feel the grit beneath him where he sat beneath a brilliant sky.
They had force-fed him another heavy dosage of melange, and Leto's mind turned
upon itself like a whirlpool. An unanswered question lay deep within the funnel
of the whirlpool: Why do they insist that I say it? Gurney was stubborn; no
doubt of that. And he'd had his orders from his Lady Jessica.
They'd brought him out of the sietch into the daylight for this "lesson." He
had the strange sensation that he'd let his body take the short trip from the
sietch while his inner being mediated a battle between the Duke Leto I and the
old Baron Harkonnen. They'd fought within him, through him, because he would not
let them communicate directly. The fight had taught him what had happened to
Alia. Poor Alia.
I was right to fear the spice trip, he thought.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 29 Oct 2009 11:10

The whole OM / ancestral personas is just so screwed up - sometimes I think that old Frank suffered from shcizofrenia ;-)

THAT is the deal he made with his ancestral personas. HE is their window onto the living universe and without him they wouldn't exist.


thanks mate - think I'm following you now :-)


as for the text box - I have the same problem at another forum using phpBB - I don't know if it's the latest version of ME that's the problem.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Oct 2009 11:15

nampigai wrote:as for the text box - I have the same problem at another forum using phpBB - I don't know if it's the latest version of ME that's the problem.


No, it happens in XP on me and my buddy's machine. I think it's an IE thing.

ME? Seriously? :snooty:
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