The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Image
    One of the two remaining Great Schools tasked with mentoring humanity

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2014 18:17

Who started this crazy topic? :P
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Robspierre » 03 Jul 2014 18:27

Freakzilla wrote:Who started this crazy topic? :P




This is what happens when you drink and post.


Rob

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2014 20:01

You're so funny Rob! :P

I want to believe this is a reference to the original BG MP adept who prepared Arrakis. But obviously no one living would remember her. Could it be bad editing on FH's part?
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Robspierre » 04 Jul 2014 00:23

It could be a story thread that was started and then discarded.


Rob

User avatar
Cpt. Aramsham
Posts: 102
Joined: 06 Oct 2012 11:11

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 04 Jul 2014 05:02

Freakzilla wrote:I want to believe this is a reference to the original BG MP adept who prepared Arrakis. But obviously no one living would remember her. Could it be bad editing on FH's part?

I don't really see the problem. People never seem to have any difficulty recognizing Jesus or the Virgin Mary when they appear on a piece of toast. As a major religious figure, the earlier Lisan al-Gaib/MP agent would no doubt be familiar to them through various representations or descriptions (as we have no reason to suppose that the Zensunni Arrakeen population is aniconic).

Plus, although the book mostly glosses over it, there is recording technology in the Dune universe. (The first example I can think of is the "solido tri-D projection" of a harvester that the Duke and his men examine in their meeting.) So it's not out of the question that the people have seen recordings of their off-world prophet, even if she lived before they were born. Comparing Jessica to the "other Lisan al-Gaib" might be like us comparing someone to Martin Luther King.

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby lotek » 04 Jul 2014 05:35

Robspierre wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Who started this crazy topic? :P




This is what happens when you drink and post.


Rob

Image
Attachments
pui.jpg
pui.jpg (16.61 KiB) Viewed 2849 times
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jul 2014 08:47

LOL, I need that. :obscene-drinkingfaded:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby lotek » 07 Jul 2014 06:41

Your computer tells you you had enough.
Image
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Cpt. Aramsham
Posts: 102
Joined: 06 Oct 2012 11:11

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 21 Jul 2018 06:42

I was just browsing the forums and came across this old thread. I don't know why I didn't mention it in my first post, but there's a twist on the interpretation of who "the other Lisan al-Gaib" refers to that I don't think has been mentioned. It's pretty simple, but I want to be thorough in lining up the supporting evidence, so please excuse my over-explaining obvious points.

Irulan is talking about how the Arrakeen people thought Paul seemed to fit their legends and prophecy, which foretold the Lisan al-Gaib. What do we know of these prophecies? Apart from the terminology definition (LISAN AL-GAIB: "The Voice from the Outer World." In Fremen messianic legends, an off-world prophet. Sometimes translated as "Giver of Water." See MAHDI.), our information is mainly from three sources. First, the confrontation with the Shadout Mapes:

"My Lady!" Mapes pleaded. She appeared about to fall to her knees. "The weapon was sent as a gift to you should you prove to be the One."
...
Mapes lowered the knife. "My Lady, when one has lived with prophecy for so long, the moment of revelation is a shock."
...
That was a specific catchphrase from the Missionaria Protectiva's stock of incantations -- The coming of the Reverend Mother to free you.


Second, from Dr. Kynes' thoughts and words (before the ornithopter ride and at the banquet):

He prided himself on being a scientist to whom legends were merely interesting clues, pointing toward cultural roots. Yet the boy fitted the ancient prophecy so precisely. He had "the questing eyes," and the air of "reserved candor."
Of course, the prophecy left certain latitude as to whether the Mother Goddess would bring the Messiah with her or produce Him on the scene. Still, there was this odd correspondence between prediction and persons.
...
Kynes' thoughts were overwhelmed at last by the words of prophecy: "And they shall share your most precious dream. "He spoke directly to Jessica: "Do you bring the shortening of the way?"


Third, from the confrontation with Stilgar when Paul and Jessica are ambushed, and later in conversation with Harah:

Now, the test of reason, Jessica thought. She said: "You ask after the Lisan al-Gaib."
"You could be the folk of the legend,"
...
"A Bene Gesserit witch!" Paul brought his captured weapon from his sash, trained it on the dark figure of Stilgar, but the man and his companions remained immobile, staring at Jessica.
"It is the legend," someone said.
"It was said that the Shadout Mapes gave this report on you," Stilgar said. "But a thing so important must be tested. If you are the Bene Gesserit of the legend whose son will lead us to paradise . . . "
...
"You saw the stranger, woman who went with Chani to the Reverend Mother?" Stilgar asked. "She's an out-freyn Sayyadina, mother to this lad. The mother and son are masters of the weirding ways of battle."
"Lisan al-Gaib," the woman whispered. Her eyes held awe as she turned them back toward Paul.


All of these make it clear that the Lisan al-Gaib is part of the legends implanted by the Missionaria Protectiva, and that these legends involve a Bene Gesserit (sometimes presented as a Mother Goddess, sometimes a Reverend Mother) and her son. The legends are deliberately vague about whether she will bring a son with her or give birth to him on-planet, in order to fit whatever in extremis situation the Bene Gesserit sister forced to fall back on this safety-hatch superstition finds herself in (if necessary, she would let her herself be impregnated and then use her son as a figurehead, in typical Bene Gesserit fashion).

Anyway, many of these quotes suggest that both the mother and son of the legend are "the One", and are in some sense the Lisan al-Gaib, or Lisan al-Gaibs. So one interpretation of the line in the epigraph is that "she was like the other Lisan al-Gaib" means that Jessica was like the other Lisan al-Gaib of the legend, in other words the Bene Gesserit "Voice from the Outer World" prophetess whose son would be the Messiah and "main" Lisan al-Gaib.

Phew!

distrans
Posts: 324
Joined: 04 Jan 2013 01:06

Re: The Other Lisan al-Gaib

Postby distrans » 22 Jul 2018 19:04

has it occurred to you that planting a story about a woman and sun would significant cut down on the usefulness as most often they would be alone?


Return to “˱”