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    Prescience

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      One of the two remaining Great Schools tasked with mentoring humanity

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    Prescience

    Postby Naïve mind » 26 Jan 2013 15:35

    Is there anything in the novel to support or undermine the suggestion that the Bene Gesserit cultivated prescience among their ranks? We know that

    • They're at least breeding the KH for prescient sight. Makes sense that the ability would manifest itself amongst its members.
    • They're heavy spice users.
    • Prescience is fairly common, i.e. many of the members of Stilgar's tribe have the sight in a rudimentary degree.

    On the other hand, for the longest time, I remembered Bene Gesserit truthsay as the art of predicting the future. And it is not, it's the ability to discern if someone is telling the truth. So the 'feeling' I had that the Bene Gesserit were all spice-addicted fortune tellers is obviously wrong. But maybe not entirely.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby distrans » 26 Jan 2013 15:39

    what got you thinking truthsaying was a predictive process?
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Naïve mind » 26 Jan 2013 16:04

    Misreading it, I suppose? For some reason, I had Mohiam pegged as the emperor's Seeer, and that impression went unquestioned for quite some time.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby distrans » 26 Jan 2013 16:39

    careful,
    the ideal that several mother superiors licked pussy might not go over so well


    the fact that odrade was mother superior makes obvious that
    the order and the proctors know they danced around the art
    as they cultivated it

    monsters

    it was right for duncan to flee
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 28 Jan 2013 03:03

    Mohiam seems to believe she can use the Dune Tarot to divine the future.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jan 2013 09:49

    Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Mohiam seems to believe she can use the Dune Tarot to divine the future.


    Jessica seems to have thought she had some kind of talent in that area:

    Jessica paled. "Is there no alternative?"
    "Alternative? A Bene Gesserit should ask that?"
    "I ask only what you see in the future with your superior abilities."
    "I see in the future what I've seen in the past. You well know the pattern
    of our affairs, Jessica. The race knows its own mortality and fears stagnation
    of its heredity. It's in the bloodstream -- the urge to mingle genetic strains
    without plan. The Imperium, the CHOAM Company, all the Great Houses, they are
    but bits of flotsam in the path of the flood."

    ~Dune
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Naïve mind » 28 Jan 2013 12:45

    Ah, and it seems that in Messiah, the economy of Arrakis is intentionally flooded with a Tarot set to encourage the inhabitants of Dune to exercise their limited prescience, in an attempt to muddle the vision of Paul and Alia. So not only do the Bene Gesserit believe that the Dune Tarot works, it actually does.

    Good. Very good. Thanks for pointing this out.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jan 2013 14:49

    Naïve mind wrote:Ah, and it seems that in Messiah, the economy of Arrakis is intentionally flooded with a Tarot set to encourage the inhabitants of Dune to exercise their limited prescience, in an attempt to muddle the vision of Paul and Alia. So not only do the Bene Gesserit believe that the Dune Tarot works, it actually does.

    Good. Very good. Thanks for pointing this out.


    IMO just believing in the Tarot would have an affect on the future, whether it really worked or not.

    If people believe the oracle, the prophecy is more likely to come true.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby SadisticCynic » 28 Jan 2013 17:37

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Naïve mind wrote:Ah, and it seems that in Messiah, the economy of Arrakis is intentionally flooded with a Tarot set to encourage the inhabitants of Dune to exercise their limited prescience, in an attempt to muddle the vision of Paul and Alia. So not only do the Bene Gesserit believe that the Dune Tarot works, it actually does.

    Good. Very good. Thanks for pointing this out.


    IMO just believing in the Tarot would have an affect on the future, whether it really worked or not.

    If people believe the oracle, the prophecy is more likely to come true.


    Goddammit! I was gonna say something to that effect, then decided I was wrong. :evil:

    Oh well, next time...
    Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jan 2013 18:58

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Naïve mind wrote:Ah, and it seems that in Messiah, the economy of Arrakis is intentionally flooded with a Tarot set to encourage the inhabitants of Dune to exercise their limited prescience, in an attempt to muddle the vision of Paul and Alia. So not only do the Bene Gesserit believe that the Dune Tarot works, it actually does.

    Good. Very good. Thanks for pointing this out.


    IMO just believing in the Tarot would have an affect on the future, whether it really worked or not.

    If people believe the oracle, the prophecy is more likely to come true.


    Goddammit! I was gonna say something to that effect, then decided I was wrong. :evil:

    Oh well, next time...


    :lol: Maybe we're both wrong.

    But think about it. How many times does FH say the oracle creates the future, not predicts it.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 28 Jan 2013 19:42

    Naive mind wrote:Is there anything in the novel to support or undermine the suggestion that the Bene Gesserit cultivated prescience among their ranks?


    Yes- they are Bene Gesserit.
    I bring nothing to the table.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby SadisticCynic » 30 Jan 2013 14:40

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Naïve mind wrote:Ah, and it seems that in Messiah, the economy of Arrakis is intentionally flooded with a Tarot set to encourage the inhabitants of Dune to exercise their limited prescience, in an attempt to muddle the vision of Paul and Alia. So not only do the Bene Gesserit believe that the Dune Tarot works, it actually does.

    Good. Very good. Thanks for pointing this out.


    IMO just believing in the Tarot would have an affect on the future, whether it really worked or not.

    If people believe the oracle, the prophecy is more likely to come true.


    Goddammit! I was gonna say something to that effect, then decided I was wrong. :evil:

    Oh well, next time...


    :lol: Maybe we're both wrong.

    But think about it. How many times does FH say the oracle creates the future, not predicts it.


    Indeed, for me it was the fact that I didn't like the idea of the cards themselves affecting the future, since the cards aren't prescient. It had to be people's decisions and maybe even a little subconscious prescience that made use of the cards affect another prescient.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2013 15:08

    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, for me it was the fact that I didn't like the idea of the cards themselves affecting the future, since the cards aren't prescient. It had to be people's decisions and maybe even a little subconscious prescience that made use of the cards affect another prescient.


    No, it doesn't have anything to do with the cards. But to a prescient it would seem like everyone on had their own individual oracle... if they believed in it.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby SadisticCynic » 31 Jan 2013 13:48

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, for me it was the fact that I didn't like the idea of the cards themselves affecting the future, since the cards aren't prescient. It had to be people's decisions and maybe even a little subconscious prescience that made use of the cards affect another prescient.


    No, it doesn't have anything to do with the cards. But to a prescient it would seem like everyone on had their own individual oracle... if they believed in it.


    Right. I was trying to say it was the person using the cards that affected prescient vision, not the cards themselves.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby inhuien » 31 Jan 2013 17:33

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, for me it was the fact that I didn't like the idea of the cards themselves affecting the future, since the cards aren't prescient. It had to be people's decisions and maybe even a little subconscious prescience that made use of the cards affect another prescient.


    No, it doesn't have anything to do with the cards. But to a prescient it would seem like everyone on had their own individual oracle... if they believed in it.


    Right. I was trying to say it was the person using the cards that affected prescient vision, not the cards themselves.



    Was that not a given, it was there usage that muddled prescience.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby SadisticCynic » 31 Jan 2013 17:49

    inhuien wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, for me it was the fact that I didn't like the idea of the cards themselves affecting the future, since the cards aren't prescient. It had to be people's decisions and maybe even a little subconscious prescience that made use of the cards affect another prescient.


    No, it doesn't have anything to do with the cards. But to a prescient it would seem like everyone on had their own individual oracle... if they believed in it.


    Right. I was trying to say it was the person using the cards that affected prescient vision, not the cards themselves.



    Was that not a given, it was there usage that muddled prescience.


    I think we were asking whether the Tarot actually worked, and thus muddled the prescient vision, or the person who uses the cards affects the vision.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jan 2013 21:11

    It's belief in the oracle that makes it predictions more likely to come true, IMO.
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby SandRider » 31 Jan 2013 21:27

    the Dune Tarot brought out latent prescient abilities
    in those who would otherwise not have affected the
    visions of Paul & Alia ... the problem was that the
    Dune Tarot became "popular", sold by the cartons to
    pilgrims in the suk ...
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    Re: Prescience

    Postby Naïve mind » 01 Feb 2013 01:37

    But it would probably only work on Arrakis, as there's spice there everywhere.

    But, the Bene Gesserit are usually keen to develop human abilities to their maximal potential. Most humans have eyes, the Bene Gesserit have petit perception. Most people have muscles, the BG have prana-bindu training. Most people have a voice--the BG have the voice.

    So, if some of their members have the ability to see the future, the Bene Gesserit would try to get the most out of that.
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