How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

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How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 23 Feb 2013 16:21

I know that many of the BG's clients for lifelong sex services, or for marriage, are primarily prominent members of the Landsraad, but what about the leaders of the lesser houses? Do the BG pay attention solely upon rank or the blood ancestry of their clients, or both? How leaders manage to acquire a concubine from the BG? Do they come visit the BG's planet, or do the BG approach the leaders themselves?

There are the exceptions in DUNE who are not leaders, but manage to marry resourceful BG. Dr. Yueh and Count Fenring managed to wed BG women, but I don't recall either of them bearing children with their wives. Yueh certainly never had children with Wanda, and Lady Margot is still bound to the BG to bear children for men other than her husband (with Feyd, at least). Wanda and Margot at least married for love, though I suppose their bound service to the BG restrict their married life. The only leader in Dune who married a BG is Shaddam, but that was more of business transaction than a love pact, and he was sovereign ruler of the Known Universe, so receiving a BG companion was expected.

Back to BG concubines, do the BG provide women to both upper and lesser Landsraad leaders? How valuable does a nobleman's blood type have to be to get a concubine if his rank isn't high enough? Does a majority of Landsraad nobles have BG concubines, or is there a limited clientele? Would Paul have been eligible to get one?
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Naïve mind » 24 Feb 2013 03:50

Jessica paled. "Is there no alternative?"
"Alternative? A Bene Gesserit should ask that?"
...
"I am Bene Gesserit: I exist only to serve, " Jessica quoted.


I very much doubt that Wanna and Margot "married for love". We know that Jessica happened to fall in love with her husband, and that Margot and Count Fenring got along very well, but in both cases, they were matched up to men approaching the genetic ideal of the Kwisatz Haderach, possessing of depths and subtleties to rival their own.

Although, perhaps, the Bene Gesserit make an effort to select concubines whose personality matches that of their prospective husbands.

As for Wanna, well, Yueh believes she loved him, and perhaps she did. But who knows what her role was ...

Yueh had returned to the window, unable to bear watching the way Jessica stared at her son. Why did Wanna never give me children? he asked himself. I know as a doctor there was no physical reason against it. Was there some Bene Gesserit reason? Was she, perhaps, instructed to serve a different purpose? What could it have been? She loved me, certainly.
For the first time, he was caught up in the thought that he might be part of a pattern more involuted and complicated than his mind could grasp.


Here there is a hint that the Bene Gesserit might have ordered Wanna to marry a Suk doctor, for the sole purpose of fashioning him into an instrument of deception, should they ever need one.

So I suspect that the Bene Gesserit will marry just about anyone, if it suits their purposes.

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 24 Feb 2013 04:18

Poor Dr. Yueh. His Suk conditioning was really messed up by his previous emotional traumas, hasn't it? When I read that last quote, where he suspects that he was only part of the grander scheme of the BG, it made me think a little of The Manchurian Candidate. By your statement, "fashioning him into an instrument of deception," do you mean they were using Wanna to sneak past Yueh's conditioning as a sleeper agent in case of emergencies? If so, they didn't count on the Baron taking advantage of Yueh's reconditioned state. It sucks that Yueh's genes were not considered worthy enough for the BG to use for the breeding program, since he would've appreciated the chance to father any kind of child, even if they were only daughters.

Just thinking applying The Manchurian Candidate to Yueh just reminded me that Yueh was one of many psychologically conditioned servants who are educated and indoctrinated to be totally loyal and professional, yet that conditioning can be countered by unexpected factors. Yueh's conditioning was so warped, that although he helped destroy House Atreides, he helped Leto kill Piter and die quickly, as well as saved Paul and Jessica indirectly. I almost feel like calling him Raymond Shaw.

So, anyone with adequate genes can get a concubine, eh? Well, let's go get the special limited time offer BG blood test, and see if we have what it takes to bear more resourceful members of the BG!
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby inhuien » 24 Feb 2013 05:25

There is also the example of Miles Tegs mother, Lady Janet Roxbrough, who married a CHOAM employee. So it would seem that the over riding drive is genetic potential of any off spring.
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Naïve mind » 24 Feb 2013 05:36

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:By your statement, "fashioning him into an instrument of deception," do you mean they were using Wanna to sneak past Yueh's conditioning as a sleeper agent in case of emergencies? If so, they didn't count on the Baron taking advantage of Yueh's reconditioned state.


Or perhaps they did count on the Baron taking advantage of Yueh's reconditioned state, because they suggested it ... The Bene Gesserit don't spare themselves--I'm not sure that extends to ordering Wanna to allow herself to be filleted by Piter de Vries, but ...

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Yueh's conditioning was so warped, that although he helped destroy House Atreides, he helped Leto kill Piter and die quickly, as well as saved Paul and Jessica indirectly. I almost feel like calling him Raymond Shaw.


I remember reading somewhere--and I don't know if it was in the novels--that Yueh rationalized his actions that there was no chance to spare the Duke's life, because the Harkonnens would find another way to kill him, but that the death of Baron Harkonnen would save many more lives. So the inhibition against losing life was still there, but instead of interpreting it deontologically (thou shalt not kill), he took a more utilitarian view.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:So, anyone with adequate genes can get a concubine, eh? Well, let's go get the special limited time offer BG blood test, and see if we have what it takes to bear more resourceful members of the BG!


Hmm, was Tanidia Nerus ever established to be a Bene Gesserit? Because while the Baron had, apparently, very adequate genes, he never managed to milk that for more than a night's worth of fun from the BG.

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 25 Feb 2013 01:38

Naïve mind wrote:Or perhaps they did count on the Baron taking advantage of Yueh's reconditioned state, because they suggested it ... The Bene Gesserit don't spare themselves--I'm not sure that extends to ordering Wanna to allow herself to be filleted by Piter de Vries, but ...


As I said, Yueh's predicament is very similar to The Manchurian Candidate. So, if the BG counted on the Baron to manipulate Yueh, does that mean the BG were thinking of helping the demise of House Atreides? If only Mohiam told the BG that the Atreides had a live KH in their midst before allowing Yueh and the Harkonnens to pulverize them.

Naïve mind wrote:I remember reading somewhere--and I don't know if it was in the novels--that Yueh rationalized his actions that there was no chance to spare the Duke's life, because the Harkonnens would find another way to kill him, but that the death of Baron Harkonnen would save many more lives. So the inhibition against losing life was still there, but instead of interpreting it deontologically (thou shalt not kill), he took a more utilitarian view.


It was a brilliant plan. I deplore what he did to the Duke, such as darting him and performing freaky dental surgery, but Yueh had a brilliant plan. Too bad the Baron's suspenders were way too quick for Yueh's poison to reach him in time. It would've been so easy for Yueh if the Landsraad Handicapable Services didn't hand out anti-gravity suspenders at discount prices for morbidly obese evil noblemen like Vladmir.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 25 Feb 2013 01:45

Naïve mind wrote:Hmm, was Tanidia Nerus ever established to be a Bene Gesserit? Because while the Baron had, apparently, very adequate genes, he never managed to milk that for more than a night's worth of fun from the BG.



Who? (Checking sources). Oh. I totally missed that fact that was Jessica's mother's name. Dune wiki claims that it is both in the original Dune (appendix, I guess) and the Dune Encyclopedia, and I have hardly read the DE yet (though I have a copy). Yes, she was offered as a concubine to the Baron, for a brief time I guess, but I don't really see what his bed performance has anything to do with my campaign to get a... Hey!

Anyway, the Baron is not really a fan of the BG anyway. I am, because I'm drawn to strong women, and that's a big weakness on my part. It's a strength of the Baron's that he hates the BG, because he's prepared to counter any ability they might use on him. What offer the BG made for the Baron to take Tanidia is unknown to me. The DE has an interesting speculation, and renders the Baron's personal history akin to Nero's. The part about Muertana, Vladmir's mother, sounded rather like Graves' account of Nero's mother Agripinilla and some Livia.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Tanidia_Nerus/DE

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Muertana_Sarobella
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Feb 2013 08:17

It was in CoD.

"Do you believe us to be such utter fools?" Jessica asked.
"Indeed I do. Your Sisterhood is nothing but a bunch of damn fool old women
who haven't thought beyond their precious breeding program! Ghani and I know the
leverage they have. Do you think us fools?"
"Leverage?"
"They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica
out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. That record accidentally
made public would pull your teeth to --"
"You think the Sisterhood would stoop to blackmail?"
"I know they would. Oh, they coated it sweetly. They told you to investigate
the rumors about your daughter. They fed your curiosity and your fears. They
invoked your sense of responsibility, made you feel guilty because you'd fled
back to Caladan. And they offered you the prospect of saving your
grandchildren."
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 25 Feb 2013 15:24

You're as thorough as a Mentat, Freakzilla!
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Feb 2013 15:40

I exist only to serve.

IMO, she had to have been BG considering the Baron's taste for young boys.

Plus, the BG have a record of it.
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Naïve mind » 25 Feb 2013 15:53



Hmm, am I the only one who finds the DE retcon to make Helen Mohiam into Jessica's mother a bit contrived? It depends on every character in the Dune series either subconsciously repressing or denying the memory-within of her, which, for some reason, is really traumatic.

it's too traumatic to have Mohiam as your grandmother, but it's easy to face the Baron Harkonnen as your grandfather? This makes no sense whatsoever. :crazy:

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Feb 2013 15:56

Naïve mind wrote:


Hmm, am I the only one who finds the DE retcon to make Helen Mohiam into Jessica's mother a bit contrived? It depends on every character in the Dune series either subconsciously repressing or denying the memory-within of her, which, for some reason, is really traumatic.

it's too traumatic to have Mohiam as your grandmother, but it's easy to face the Baron Harkonnen as your grandfather? This makes no sense whatsoever. :crazy:


I'm pretty sure most here find that a little too cute. They carried that little factoid into the new books as well, I think. :roll:
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 26 Feb 2013 00:04

Of course Jessica's mother is BG. I wasn't too clear in my last post that she was, but I meant to say that the BG did send her to the Baron. I was more distracted by how the Baron's short fling related to my joke about young virile Dune geeks getting qualification from the BG to get a concubine. Good point, Freakzilla, in that only a BG would have the ability to make the Baron even somewhat willing to mate with her, because of the Voice and stuff. I only thought that they only managed to nab the Baron through shrewd business dealings, but having the BG use their powers on the Baron could explain why he had to be super cautious when it came to Jessica. For one of the fattest and nastiest villains in literature, his character was awesomely conceived.

And yest, Naive Mind, I agree that having Helen Mohiam be Jessica's mother is rather too contrived. Having another BG, Taridia Nerus, be the mother makes her more of a mystery. It makes me wonder, though, why the Dune books don't elaborate more on Taridia, because Alia and the twins could remember everything about her.

Naïve mind wrote:


Hmm, am I the only one who finds the DE retcon to make Helen Mohiam into Jessica's mother a bit contrived? It depends on every character in the Dune series either subconsciously repressing or denying the memory-within of her, which, for some reason, is really traumatic.

it's too traumatic to have Mohiam as your grandmother, but it's easy to face the Baron Harkonnen as your grandfather? This makes no sense whatsoever. :crazy:


Although I don't believe Mohiam is Jessica's mother, II think Paul would've been more traumatized if not only Mohiam was his grandmother, but if she and the Baron (if he didn't die) lived together next door to his palace in a retirement home and gave daily visits to his kids. (Shudder!)
Last edited by Jodorowsky's Acolyte on 19 Mar 2013 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Naïve mind » 26 Feb 2013 00:13

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Although I don't believe Mohiam is Jessica's mother, II think Paul would've been more traumatized if not only Mohiam was his grandmother, but if she and the Baron (if he didn't die) lived together next door to his palace in a retirement home and gave daily visits to his kids. (Shudder!)


:? I think you've just given me a glimpse of the depthless horror of other memory--it's like having your grandparents over, all the time, in your head. :lol:

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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby lotek » 26 Feb 2013 06:21

SadisticCynic wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:


Hmm, am I the only one who finds the DE retcon to make Helen Mohiam into Jessica's mother a bit contrived? It depends on every character in the Dune series either subconsciously repressing or denying the memory-within of her, which, for some reason, is really traumatic.

it's too traumatic to have Mohiam as your grandmother, but it's easy to face the Baron Harkonnen as your grandfather? This makes no sense whatsoever. :crazy:


I'm pretty sure most here find that a little too cute. They carried that little factoid into the new books as well, I think. :roll:



It does have that "everyone important is related because yeah that's ultra awesome to tie up faceted loose ends in such a masterful manner" feel. No wonder the morons liked it.
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Re: How Important Do You Need to Be to Get a BG Concubine/Wife?

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Feb 2013 07:21

I mean, there are a lot of, um, facets to this, a lot of interested parties.
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