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Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Jun 2017 06:36
by pcqypcqy
I'm not sure of the exact quotes/timelines, but I got the feeling that the length if time that the BG had spent on CH planet in the last two books was similar to the interval between books 4&5. There are references to wooden beams, Bellonda's short term thinking, etc.

In GEoD, Leto is talking to Chenoeh and tells her to go back to her Chapterhouse and report his words, etc.

At that time, the BG could only have been on CH planet for a short while.

Not inconsistent, just seems odd that it didn't get more of a mention in the books, especially as we are lead to believe that Wallach IX was the BG HQ planet before this.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Jun 2017 07:13
by Serkanner
Wallach IX was captured by the Honered Matres. I assume the BG Chaterhouse was on Wallach IX untill it was captured. The BG moved and apparently saw no reason to change the name of the planet to anything but as the location of their Chapterhouse.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Jun 2017 08:36
by Freakzilla
Stiffly, Taraza lifted herself from her chairdog and went to the darkened window
across from her. Chapter House Planet lay in star-shadowed darkness. A refuge:
Chapter House Planet. Such planets were not even recipients of names anymore;
only numbers somewhere in Archives. This planet had seen fourteen hundred years
of Bene Gesserit occupancy
but even that must be considered temporary. She
thought of the guardian no-ships orbiting overhead: Teg's own defense system in
depth. Still, Chapter House remained vulnerable.

~Heretics of Dune

So since only a hundred years after Leto's division.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Jun 2017 18:39
by pcqypcqy
Freakzilla wrote:Stiffly, Taraza lifted herself from her chairdog and went to the darkened window
across from her. Chapter House Planet lay in star-shadowed darkness. A refuge:
Chapter House Planet. Such planets were not even recipients of names anymore;
only numbers somewhere in Archives. This planet had seen fourteen hundred years
of Bene Gesserit occupancy
but even that must be considered temporary. She
thought of the guardian no-ships orbiting overhead: Teg's own defense system in
depth. Still, Chapter House remained vulnerable.

~Heretics of Dune

So since only a hundred years after Leto's division.


This is where I'm confused. I'm pretty sure Leto II refers to chapter house in GEoD. Either when Anteac and Luyseyel have their audience, or in the bit where Sister Chenoeh's words that were hidden introduce a chapter.

Unless Chapter House in that sense is more a title for whatever planet is the current HQ, rather than referring to the particular planet we know as Chapter house in the final 2 books.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Jun 2017 18:47
by pcqypcqy
Serkanner wrote:Wallach IX was captured by the Honered Matres. I assume the BG Chaterhouse was on Wallach IX untill it was captured. The BG moved and apparently saw no reason to change the name of the planet to anything but as the location of their Chapterhouse.


As per Freak's quote, the BG were on CH planet pre scattering.

I'm fairly sure they were there during the reign of Leto II as well, bit this is what I'm trying to confirm.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 25 Jun 2017 03:55
by Serkanner
pcqypcqy wrote:
Serkanner wrote:Wallach IX was captured by the Honered Matres. I assume the BG Chaterhouse was on Wallach IX untill it was captured. The BG moved and apparently saw no reason to change the name of the planet to anything but as the location of their Chapterhouse.


As per Freak's quote, the BG were on CH planet pre scattering.

I'm fairly sure they were there during the reign of Leto II as well, bit this is what I'm trying to confirm.


Wallach IX is not mentioned in GEoD. Leto mentions Chapter House only as the or your Chapter House. To me Chapter House means "a large room to hold meetings" and Frank obviously uses it as such as well. The location of the BG Chapter House is of no importance in GEoD. I wrote in my previous post "the BG moved" and I should have written "the BG moved their Chapter House"

Freak's quote shows the BG was not present at the planet which later becomes the BG Chapter House.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 25 Jun 2017 05:18
by pcqypcqy
Serkanner wrote:Wallach IX is not mentioned in GEoD. Leto mentions Chapter House only as the or your Chapter House. To me Chapter House means "a large room to hold meetings" and Frank obviously uses it as such as well. The location of the BG Chapter House is of no importance in GEoD. I wrote in my previous post "the BG moved" and I should have written "the BG moved their Chapter House"

Freak's quote shows the BG was not present at the planet which later becomes the BG Chapter House.


Fair enough.

But they didn't move it because the HM's attacked it, it had been there for most of the famine times and scattering. I presume that it was their HQ the whole time, else it would have needed a name.

I was just always stuck by the close proximity of their move in date of CH planet and the time of GEoD, and wondered if there was more than mere coincidence involved.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 25 Jun 2017 06:04
by pcqypcqy
I found the quotes I was thinking of, noting the inconsistency.

Heretics p7
Lucilla, who had come to depend on her experiences of the Jessica persona buried some five thousand years back in the Sisterhood's genetic manipulations,

Heretics p9
And fifteen hundred years since the Tyrant's death, the Sisterhood remained powerless to unlock the central knot of that fearsome accomplishment.

Heretics P178
A refuge: Chapter House Planet. Such planets were not even recipients of names anymore; only numbers somewhere in Archives. This planet had seen fourteen hundred years of Bene Gesserit occupancy but even that must be considered temporary.

Heretics P278
Reluctance filled her at this thought. These quarters felt so . . . so secure. But that was foolishness and she knew it in every fiber. The Bene Gesserit had been here more than fourteen hundred years and still Chapter House Planet must be considered only temporary.



And....

CH:D P10
Seeds and young shoots had been brought here on the original no-ships some fifteen hundred years ago, she said, and had been planted with loving care.

CH:D p86
The changing landscape loomed large in Odrade's thoughts. More than fifteen hundred years of Bene Gesserit occupancy on Chapterhouse. Signs of us everywhere. Not just in special groves or vineyards and orchards. What it must be doing to the collective psyche, seeing such changes come over their familiar land.



I know that no ships weren't a thing before Leto II died, so I'm guessing he just got the numbers wrong and his intent was that CH planet was colonised after the end of GEoD.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 25 Jun 2017 11:18
by Freakzilla
Chapterhouse is wherever the Bene Gesserit headquarters is, not one particular place.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 25 Jun 2017 19:23
by pcqypcqy
Freakzilla wrote:Chapterhouse is wherever the Bene Gesserit headquarters is, not one particular place.


I agree, but they didn't bother naming CH planet because it was the CH. At least that's the impression I got.

I agree this is a very minor inconsistency in the scheme of things. I rationalise it by thinking that the BG colonised CH planet in the first century after Leto II's death and made it their new HQ immediately, and that FH just got his maths slightly wrong.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 26 Jun 2017 10:46
by Freakzilla
For the location of CH planet to remain secret it HAD to have been colonized after the invention of no-ships. I guess that was just an opportune time for them to make their move.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 26 Jun 2017 23:00
by pcqypcqy
Freakzilla wrote:For the location of CH planet to remain secret it HAD to have been colonized after the invention of no-ships. I guess that was just an opportune time for them to make their move.



Agreed.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 27 Jun 2017 10:43
by georgiedenbro
pcqypcqy wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:For the location of CH planet to remain secret it HAD to have been colonized after the invention of no-ships. I guess that was just an opportune time for them to make their move.



Agreed.


Possibly. I think it doesn't matter that much. But since they moved shortly after Leto II divided it might have been a result of conflict as well. Not everyone scattered, and some probably warred with each other instead after the fall of the Tyrant. After the raid on Ix I shouldn't be surprised that the BT managed to locate and wipe out the current Chapter House and force the BG to move. It's basically just fanfic speculation at this point. Maybe the Fish Dancers did it. Who knows.

It seems more relevant to me that even before Heretics the BG knew enough to know that bases needed to be temporary, which was a long-term (and therefore only partially realized) version of what Teg and Odrade finally understood, which is that being entrenched is always deadly.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 01 Jul 2017 02:50
by pcqypcqy
georgiedenbro wrote:
pcqypcqy wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:For the location of CH planet to remain secret it HAD to have been colonized after the invention of no-ships. I guess that was just an opportune time for them to make their move.



Agreed.


Possibly. I think it doesn't matter that much. But since they moved shortly after Leto II divided it might have been a result of conflict as well. Not everyone scattered, and some probably warred with each other instead after the fall of the Tyrant. After the raid on Ix I shouldn't be surprised that the BT managed to locate and wipe out the current Chapter House and force the BG to move. It's basically just fanfic speculation at this point. Maybe the Fish Dancers did it. Who knows.

It seems more relevant to me that even before Heretics the BG knew enough to know that bases needed to be temporary, which was a long-term (and therefore only partially realized) version of what Teg and Odrade finally understood, which is that being entrenched is always deadly.


I agree with that as well. The timing inconsistency always bothered me, but only because the duniverse is so well conceived that there aren't all that many mistakes.

What Freak said makes sense, the BG sensed an opportunity to take advantage of no ships and move to a new, unknown to outsiders planet and essentially disappear.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 24 Oct 2017 22:13
by Hunchback Jack
I had a vague notion - probably not substantiated by the text - that a "chapter house" was just the location of the local "chapter" of the BG, and that they may originally have been more than one. Using the term "Chapter House" as a proper name referred to the BG HQ (and may have derived from the more generic usage).

By the time of HoD, the planet Chapter House was named so because that where the BG Chapter House resided. If may have had no other name before the BG occupied it.

HBJ

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 29 Oct 2017 09:27
by Freakzilla
Hunchback Jack wrote:I had a vague notion - probably not substantiated by the text - that a "chapter house" was just the location of the local "chapter" of the BG, and that they may originally have been more than one. Using the term "Chapter House" as a proper name referred to the BG HQ (and may have derived from the more generic usage).

By the time of HoD, the planet Chapter House was named so because that where the BG Chapter House resided. If may have had no other name before the BG occupied it.

HBJ


I believe one of the Mother Superiors DOES think to herself that Chapterhouse is more of a description than a name.

Re: Chapter house planet, when was it inhabited

Posted: 06 Nov 2017 21:00
by pcqypcqy
Hunchback Jack wrote:I had a vague notion - probably not substantiated by the text - that a "chapter house" was just the location of the local "chapter" of the BG, and that they may originally have been more than one. Using the term "Chapter House" as a proper name referred to the BG HQ (and may have derived from the more generic usage).

By the time of HoD, the planet Chapter House was named so because that where the BG Chapter House resided. If may have had no other name before the BG occupied it.

HBJ


I thought it was undiscovered or long forgotten when the BG moved in. It was an essential part of the secrecy involved. So on that basis I presume it was un-named, unless the BG had been sitting on the info and had named it themselves, but then they'd be calling it that.