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Male in Other Memories

Posted: 30 May 2008 23:02
by Spice Agony
I don't know if this has been talked about yet (I'm relatively new), but I was under the impression that only the female lineage was present in the Other Memories (I think it says so a couple times overall, at least once in Dune, but I can't find any quotes right now).

But near the end of Heretics of Dune, after Odrade absorbed the memories of Taraza, she finds the memory of Teg. "She saw the Bashar there in her own assemblage of Other Memories: the father she had never really known"

So why is he there when no other male is? Even Paul didn't show in any Other Memories except Leto II, but he had all of both sides anyway.

Posted: 30 May 2008 23:16
by SandChigger
Oh, it's been DONE TO DEATH (I'm relatively old!)!!

Just kidding!

Women cannot access the memories of their male ancestors without risking possession by those personalities. BUT they can access their female ancestors memories of those men.

I don't remember right off the surrounding context of the passage you quote from Heretics, but hopefully the above covers it? (Will check now.)

Posted: 04 Jul 2008 01:35
by Apjak
Would need to check context, but I'm pretty sure the impression was that she remembered him through the other memory of her mother.

Posted: 04 Jul 2008 10:01
by orald
Apjak wrote:Would need to check context, but I'm pretty sure the impression was that she remembered him through the other memory of her mother.

Yep.

Posted: 04 Jul 2008 10:13
by Secher_Nbiw
correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that females could only access memories of males, not male memories, the exception being the pre-born (as evidenced by the Abomination Alia). or did i miss something?

Posted: 04 Jul 2008 13:14
by Phaedrus
Secher_Nbiw wrote:correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that females could only access memories of males, not male memories, the exception being the pre-born (as evidenced by the Abomination Alia). or did i miss something?


No, that's correct.

Go back to your daily lives, nothing insane has happened to the Duniverse(aside from the new books, but I don't count those as the Duniverse).

Posted: 25 Oct 2008 20:38
by halcyo
Secher_Nbiw wrote:correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that females could only access memories of males, not male memories, the exception being the pre-born (as evidenced by the Abomination Alia). or did i miss something?


whoa whoa whoa, read your first sentence slowly and please edit! I was so confused for a second!

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 09:48
by Freakzilla
Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.

The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 10:00
by loremaster
Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.

The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.


I've actually been curious about this... what evidence do you have they can go there but choose not to?

The only passage i can remember is where jessica shows the place to paul, she says "that is the place we cannot go". To me, thats not too dissimilar to me pointing at the moon and saying "thats is the place we cannot go".

There's probably a quote somewhere but i always preferred to think that it was, as much as anything, a physical impossibility as well as a reluctance.

Not trying to play devils advocate, its just not the way i`ve always thought of it.

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 10:10
by Freakzilla
loremaster wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.

The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.


I've actually been curious about this... what evidence do you have they can go there but choose not to?

The only passage i can remember is where jessica shows the place to paul, she says "that is the place we cannot go". To me, thats not too dissimilar to me pointing at the moon and saying "thats is the place we cannot go".

There's probably a quote somewhere but i always preferred to think that it was, as much as anything, a physical impossibility as well as a reluctance.

Not trying to play devils advocate, its just not the way i`ve always thought of it.


No, in my opinion, it's the same as taking you to lunar orbit and saying you have to land yourself.

But mainly it's just common sense. We all have OM, we just don't know how to access it. RMs have learned how to access the male side and avoid the female side. This is the whole purpose of the KH, to be able to access both.

If I can think of a better quote to back this up other than Jessica showing Paul where the male OMs were, I'll post it. But that was the main one I think of.

It has a lot to do with the Male/Female - giver/taker speach Paul gives after that too.

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 10:28
by halcyo
Freak is right...

What is special about the BG is that they can 'readily' access OM. What is special about the KH is that he can 'readily' access the memories of his MALE lineage without losing his gobshite freaking mind...

The Female is the Giver, and the Male is the Taker. The female psyche is terrified of the male 'Taker'- it's just incompatible for their own - hence the danger of possession. What's interesting is that Paul can safely access the Giver instinct - so I guess he's supposed to be a little bit androgynous :wink:

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 11:21
by Freakzilla
halcyo wrote:Freak is right...The Female is the Giver, and the Male is the Taker. The female psyche is terrified of the male 'Taker'- it's just incompatible for their own - hence the danger of possession. What's interesting is that Paul can safely access the Giver instinct - so I guess he's supposed to be a little bit androgynous :wink:


He is the fulcrum.

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 12:18
by SandChigger
"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory—in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past...but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot—into both feminine and masculine pasts."

To me, that reads a bit ambiguous. "No Truthsayer can see" implies inability, but "repelled, terrorized" kinda takes it the other way.

:?

Posted: 26 Oct 2008 20:13
by halcyo
I think that Reverend Mothers are TRAINED to fear it, so that they don't sink into 'abomination' as the Pre-Born do. It's obviously not an 'innate fear', because it is apparently a very seductive path, as it is to someone like Alia, Leto II, or Ghanima. I think there's even a mention somewhere during Alia's possession that one of her biggest problems is that she wasn't brought up and trained to have the same inhibitions to utilize certain capabilities that other Reverend Mothers have.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 09:09
by Freakzilla
halcyo wrote:I think that Reverend Mothers are TRAINED to fear it, so that they don't sink into 'abomination' as the Pre-Born do. It's obviously not an 'innate fear', because it is apparently a very seductive path, as it is to someone like Alia, Leto II, or Ghanima. I think there's even a mention somewhere during Alia's possession that one of her biggest problems is that she wasn't brought up and trained to have the same inhibitions to utilize certain capabilities that other Reverend Mothers have.


She was particularly bitter at the way the Sisterhood's mythology had
trapped Alia. Fear built on fear! The habits of generations had imprinted the
fate of Abomination upon her. Alia had known no hope. Of course she'd succumbed.
Her fate made the accomplishment of Leto and Ghanima even more difficult to
face. Not one way out of the trap, but two. Ghanima's victory over the inner
lives and her insistence that Alia deserved only pity were the bitterest things
of all. Hypnotic suppression under stress linked to the wooing of a benign
ancestor had saved Ghanima. They might have saved Alia. But without hope,
nothing had been attempted until it was too late. Alia's water had been poured
upon the sand.

~Children of Dune

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 11:32
by loremaster
'Chig raises another interesting point i once meant to mention.

At one point, early in dune, (WITHOUT the benefit of later texts) the traits of Truthsense, prescience, and other Memory all seem linked... true we dont know to what extent, since they were trying to achieve all three in paul. H/E we know there are truthsayers without pr/OM. also OM without pr/TR and finally Prescients w/o TR/OM.


OR

As with Ancestral memory (all RM's in Dune) and Other Memory (later books). Do we think Frank's concept of these powers changed as he wrote, and he later decided to alter them in order to tell more intricate stories? - I know 'Chig attempted to rationalise Ancestral/OM by saying "Leto must have bred for it in the Atreides" but, TBH with you, i think perhaps that's unlikely - Such a shift in the ability to access past memories would be almost as incredible, and significant as Duncan accessing the memories of all other dead duncans.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 12:43
by A Thing of Eternity
loremaster wrote:'Chig raises another interesting point i once meant to mention.

At one point, early in dune, (WITHOUT the benefit of later texts) the traits of Truthsense, prescience, and other Memory all seem linked... true we dont know to what extent, since they were trying to achieve all three in paul. H/E we know there are truthsayers without pr/OM. also OM without pr/TR and finally Prescients w/o TR/OM.


OR

As with Ancestral memory (all RM's in Dune) and Other Memory (later books). Do we think Frank's concept of these powers changed as he wrote, and he later decided to alter them in order to tell more intricate stories? - I know 'Chig attempted to rationalise Ancestral/OM by saying "Leto must have bred for it in the Atreides" but, TBH with you, i think perhaps that's unlikely - Such a shift in the ability to access past memories would be almost as incredible, and significant as Duncan accessing the memories of all other dead duncans.


I never got the impression that Truth Sense was in any way connected to Prescience or OM, I thought of Truth Sense as the reading of the minutiae in a person's face/voice/body language - sort of an extreme extension of how most people can tell some of the time when someone else is lying. The same thing but perfected into a science.

Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 14:31
by halcyo
I never got the impression that Truth Sense was in any way connected to Prescience or OM, I thought of Truth Sense as the reading of the minutiae in a person's face/voice/body language - sort of an extreme extension of how most people can tell some of the time when someone else is lying. The same thing but perfected into a science.


I tend to look at it this way as well.

Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.


Well, yes and no. Perhaps you could view the drug induced Truth Trance as a means to enhancing concentration and analytical abilities? A big part of being able to 'read' a person is experience in reading many people! OM could certainly enhance your knowledge of human psychological behavior and the minutiae of verbal and body language. This could be a way for a Truthsayer to assess and compare truth from lies...

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 14:32
by A Thing of Eternity
halcyo wrote:
Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.


Well, yes and no. Perhaps you could view the drug induced Truth Trance as a means to enhancing concentration and analytical abilities? A big part of being able to 'read' a person is experience in reading many people! OM could certainly enhance your knowledge of human psychological behavior and the minutiae of verbal and body language. This could be a way for a Truthsayer to assess and compare truth from lies...


True.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 14:33
by halcyo
I swear it seemed like you replied to my post before I even posted it! That was fast! :D

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 14:35
by A Thing of Eternity
Freak's even faster. He actually can reply to a post before it has been posted, I've seen it 2 or 3 times now. He's a ninja. :shock:

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 14:54
by Freakzilla
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Freak's even faster. He actually can reply to a post before it has been posted, I've seen it 2 or 3 times now. He's a ninja. :shock:


I was only able to do that at DumbNovels, you people are too quick for me here.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 18:25
by Lisan Al-Gaib
And, what about Rebecca? Lets not forget her. She pass through the Agony and had the power of sharing, but hadn't Ancestral Memories.

I think she was the example that accessing AM was necessary a previous training.

Posted: 27 Oct 2008 20:06
by halcyo
Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:And about Rebecca? Lets not forget her. She had been past through the Agony and had the power of sharing, but hadn't OM.

I think she was the example that accessing OM was necessary a previous training.


I feel ashamed, but those details are fuzzy to me at the moment. Could someone find evidence of this? I could have sworn she talked to the Rabbi about OM. Was it really JUST the shared lives? Maybe she was just overwhelmed with all of the shared memories that she couldn't really dive deeper into her own ancestral past through all that 'noise'?

I can't imagine, having been through the Agony, that she was unable to access her own genetic memory to some extent.

Posted: 28 Oct 2008 02:49
by loremaster
AToE - i think there is a passage in HoD where rebecca is describing her old boyfriend, who was a truthsayer, and in there it is mentioned that

"Even if the subject genuinely believes what they are saying, my truthsense will still ring alarm bells" (paraphrased!).

Which suggests to me that truthsense is something within the natural harmony of the universe, since a person who genuinely believes what they are saying would (presumably) display no outward sign of the falsehood.

Which always led me to think that a truthsayer should ask a subject a question which they had NO chance of knowing, and just keep waiting till their spidey-sense went off.

Truthsayer (to Prisoner): "Is RM Mohiam wearing a black lace thong?"
Prisoner: How the F*** should i know?
Truthsayer *slaps prisoner* just answer!
Prisoner: Ummm..... No, she isnt wearing a black lace thong.
Truthsayer: my truthsense is tingling, which means she must be! *Fap Fap Fap Fap*