The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

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The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 10:14

What do you think the Bene Gesserit plan was for the Kwisatz Haderach before they lost control of the breeding program?

Would there still have been a Jihad?

If so, and not a Fremen Jihad, who?

I'd like to see your speculative histories.
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Re: The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

Postby Secher_Nbiw » 23 Oct 2008 10:24

Freakzilla wrote:What do you think the Bene Gesserit plan was for the Kwisatz Haderach before they lost control of the breeding program?

Would there still have been a Jihad?

If so, and not a Fremen Jihad, who?

I'd like to see your speculative histories.


ONe theory I've had about this would be that they would have brought him up to be used as a stud, to create a bloodline of men with the KH traits, so they could be wed and society could be swayed much easier by the Sisterhood, whilst also consolodating their power base with the Guild, securing trade and transport. I envisioned the BG to have had an ideal something not a million miles away from Leto's Golden Path, only far less bloody, and with far less obvious tyranny.
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Re: The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

Postby Nekhrun » 23 Oct 2008 11:10

Freakzilla wrote:What do you think the Bene Gesserit plan was for the Kwisatz Haderach before they lost control of the breeding program?

Would there still have been a Jihad?

If so, and not a Fremen Jihad, who?

I'd like to see your speculative histories.

I think they would've kept it pretty low-key. They wouldn't have told anyone they had him, but they'd probably have him directing all of their activities behind the scenes.

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Re: The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 11:30

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:What do you think the Bene Gesserit plan was for the Kwisatz Haderach before they lost control of the breeding program?

Would there still have been a Jihad?

If so, and not a Fremen Jihad, who?

I'd like to see your speculative histories.

I think they would've kept it pretty low-key. They wouldn't have told anyone they had him, but they'd probably have him directing all of their activities behind the scenes.


Ah, but what of the deal between the Emperor, Guild and Bene Gesserit to place a BG on the throne?



When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne. He blamed
the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
ancestry.

-"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan

What of Paul and Jessica's observation that Irulan was groomed to ascend to the throne?

Paul spoke to his mother: "She reminds him that it's part of their agreement
to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne, and Irulan is the one they've groomed
for it."
"Was that their plan?" Jessica said.
"Isn't it obvious?" Paul asked.
"I see the signs!" Jessica snapped. "My question was meant to remind you
that you should not try to teach me those matters in which I instructed you."

~Dune

Do you think that the KH was the key to BG ascension?
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Oct 2008 12:19

I'd always thought they wanted to keep operating exactly as they already were, but with better "intelligence" through male OM and prescience. I don't think they had any take over the universe plans, but that may be something I totally overlooked based on those quotes Freak.

As far as coming up with something like the GP - no way. That's the total oposite of how the BG think, they'd want ever more organized humanity, and ever more systems. They wouldn't have the vision or balls to cause the scattering.
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 12:43

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I'd always thought they wanted to keep operating exactly as they already were, but with better "intelligence" through male OM and prescience. I don't think they had any take over the universe plans, but that may be something I totally overlooked based on those quotes Freak.


Something for you to think about. :)

As far as coming up with something like the GP - no way. That's the total oposite of how the BG think, they'd want ever more organized humanity, and ever more systems. They wouldn't have the vision or balls to cause the scattering.


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YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."

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Some more to think about, eh? :wink:
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 12:57

Baraka Bryan wrote:one thing to remember is Paul was a generation early. they planned to have their KH available for 'use' at least 20 years later.

by that time, Irulan, being groomed for the throne, would almost be ready to take over, or if shaddam lived long, he may have still been on there. I think they may have planned for an Irulan, KH union on the throne eventually anyways, with them the powers behind the throne.


I think so too.
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Postby GamePlayer » 23 Oct 2008 13:06

Whatever the Bene Gesserit had planned, it would ultimately be a more confining, controlling and narrowly constrained system then what was in place at the beginning of Dune. One thing clear from the novels is that humanity was at a stasis or roadblock and all the factions were interested in was either maintaining the status quo or acquiring more power to impose more order. It goes without saying that the BG wanted to have things their way, so they would have seized any opportunity to do so.

I don't see a Jihad with a BG-controlled Kwisatz Haderach. The Bene Gesserit definitely don't strike me as having destructive, open-warfare plans at all. The wanted to ensure spice flow as much as anyone and were willing to do anything to maintain the balance of power necessary to ensure it's continued production. With a KH, I do see a shift in power for the BG. I definitely see the Guild as becoming vulnerable to the BG and I can see the BG having more of the Guild at it's beck and call. I could also see the BG wresting control of a portion of the Guild to place under their direct command, thus leaving the Guild to monopolize transport for everyone else EXCEPT for the BG themselves. They'd have inexpensive and cheap access across the stars while everyone else would pay.

As for the Landsraad, I see it remaining relatively in tact. I do see more pressure placed upon the Houses and the Emperor, but aside from breeding they'd likely be permitted to conduct their affairs relatively autonomously from the BG. With a KH, it's not like the BG could be threatened by any of the houses anyway.
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 13:14

"I see in the future what I've seen in the past. You well know the pattern
of our affairs, Jessica. The race knows its own mortality and fears stagnation
of its heredity. It's in the bloodstream -- the urge to mingle genetic strains
without plan. The Imperium, the CHOAM Company, all the Great Houses, they are
but bits of flotsam in the path of the flood."

~RM Mohiam, Dune

Something was going to happen... If not Jihad, how would the BG have "mingled genetic strains without plan"?
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Postby GamePlayer » 23 Oct 2008 14:07

Who says the BG did want to mingle genetic strains without plan? Just because they can see the possibility or understand the history of humanity, doesn't mean that's what they were trying to accomplish. The actions of the BG breeding program implies they were mingling genetic strains, but definitely not without plan. The BG wanted to produce the KH, something that perhaps never would have happened naturally unless much more time had passed in human history. Perhaps too much time; maybe the BG figured that without their manipulations, the human race might die out before the KH ever appeared. It certainly plays into their arrogance and belief in the importance of their work.

I'm not sure a jihad was coming (putting aside the factual events of Dune), all I know is the BG don't seem like the kind to create it themselves. It's far too overt and the BG don't like that; they like subtle (a statement of feminine undertones?). Also, let's keep in mind the effect this speculative topic has upon the narrative of Dune. The Bene Gesserit saw a flood coming because Frank Herbert knew what he was writing in advance. If we are changing that outcome and speculating, we can no longer take the complete narrative of Dune at face value nor use it as proof against our own speculations. Ergo, if a free KH like Paul was never to be, the BG might not have foreseen a "flood" to begin with. Correct?

Remember, the BG can only see parts; Paul obviously saw the truth of the whole. Who is to say how a BG-controlled KH would have reacted, but it's clear that by understanding Frank Herbert's themes, we know for a fact it would have, in the end, been detrimental to humanity (jihad or no jihad). There was only one path and the BG were NOT following it, no matter their intentions. The BG were a part of the process that led to the outcome of Paul (which led humanity down the right path) but they never actually got what they wanted. Rather ironic :)
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 14:32

I think the Bene Gesserit breeding program was partly responsible for the stagnation of the human gene pool.

From Mohiam's perspective, she either didn't think much of Paul's potential or was ordered to ignore it, as Jessica's report would have us believe.

But she did see something coming.

I present this scenerio:

Paulette Atreides and Feyd-Rautha's son is the KH and ascends to the throne. Prior to this, the MP do their thing among the Sardaukar through Empress Irulan.

The Landsraad doesn't like the idea of a Bene Gesserit Male on the throne.

To bring the rebel Great Houses in line, House Corrino unleash the Sardaukar.

There's your Jihad.
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Postby SandChigger » 23 Oct 2008 18:30

Freakzilla wrote:I think the Bene Gesserit breeding program was partly responsible for the stagnation of the human gene pool.

Partly as in how much/to what degree?

I think you're giving them far too much credit. There's certainly no way they have their fingers in everyone's pot, so to speak. Meddling in the bloodlines of the aristocracy, the Houses Major and Minor, and pulling in what commoners they happened upon with favorable traits...isn't that about the range of what they could have managed?

No, it was the socio-politico-economic structure of the Imperium that was killing the race. There probably was not a whole lot of mixing up and down the social ladder (result of the faufreluches), and definitely little population movement between worlds (Guild stranglehold plus classes of people being bound to planets, like pyons).
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 23 Oct 2008 18:30

"The old Truthsayer, the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, had her own view of the hidden meaning in Paul's words now. She glimpsed the jihad and said: "You cannot loose these people upon the universe!""

-- Mohiam, Dune, page 319


I have my doubts about whether the BG wants a jihad to mingle the genes pool or not...What the Mohiam said to Paul in the end of DUNE only made me believe in what Baraka Bryan is saying:
The BG didn't want a Jihad (i.e. gene mixtures), they want the stagnated control that they helped to create after the Butlerian Jihad. But this statement make me think about one thing: Why they needed a KH? Why to have a male R.M. ? (I believe the part about prescience was a unexpected effect of Paul, he stated during DUNE he was much more than KH.)
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Postby Mandy » 23 Oct 2008 20:02

I don't think they wanted a Jihad either. They wanted complete control, because they thought of themselves as caretakers of humanity. Having a male BG on the throne would have given them an even better opportunity to rule from behind the scenes. Who says they would have made it known that the person was the KH? Anyone outside the BG wouldn't have known what that meant, anyway.

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Postby SimonH » 23 Oct 2008 20:13

Mandy wrote:I don't think they wanted a Jihad either. They wanted complete control, because they thought of themselves as caretakers of humanity. Having a male BG on the throne would have given them an even better opportunity to rule from behind the scenes. Who says they would have made it known that the person was the KH? Anyone outside the BG wouldn't have known what that meant, anyway.


I agree, though the knowledge of the powers that Paul had may have stopped insurgents short before acting because it was known that he was prescient.

I guess it could work both ways. People would probably cotton on pretty quickly unless you "lost" a few battles here and there.

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Postby Laphtiya » 24 Oct 2008 04:25

I always thought that they would have placed the KH on the Imperial Throne and shaped humanity and the Empire in the way that they thought was best. With Bene Gesserit training and OM from both sexes and Precient ability, this would have been the Perfect means for the Bene Gesserit to manipulate the Human race into what they wanted.

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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 24 Oct 2008 10:52

Laphtiya wrote:I always thought that they would have placed the KH on the Imperial Throne and shaped humanity and the Empire in the way that they thought was best. With Bene Gesserit training and OM from both sexes and Precient ability, this would have been the Perfect means for the Bene Gesserit to manipulate the Human race into what they wanted.


I don't know...I always thought that the Breeding program and finally the KH would be to something much more "important" for humanity.

I can't conciliate a explanation for why the BG didn't want a Jihad and a reason for the KH at the same time.
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Postby Laphtiya » 24 Oct 2008 13:38

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:I always thought that they would have placed the KH on the Imperial Throne and shaped humanity and the Empire in the way that they thought was best. With Bene Gesserit training and OM from both sexes and Precient ability, this would have been the Perfect means for the Bene Gesserit to manipulate the Human race into what they wanted.


I don't know...I always thought that the Breeding program and finally the KH would be to something much more "important" for humanity.

I can't conciliate a explanation for why the BG didn't want a Jihad and a reason for the KH at the same time.


Wasn't there something about the BG using the missionaria protectiva, seeding religions about a messiah in almost every culture in the universe? Wasn't part of the plan to use the KH as the religious messiah, which is just what happened with the Fremen.

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Postby Freakzilla » 24 Oct 2008 13:55

Laphtiya wrote:
Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:I always thought that they would have placed the KH on the Imperial Throne and shaped humanity and the Empire in the way that they thought was best. With Bene Gesserit training and OM from both sexes and Precient ability, this would have been the Perfect means for the Bene Gesserit to manipulate the Human race into what they wanted.


I don't know...I always thought that the Breeding program and finally the KH would be to something much more "important" for humanity.

I can't conciliate a explanation for why the BG didn't want a Jihad and a reason for the KH at the same time.


Wasn't there something about the BG using the missionaria protectiva, seeding religions about a messiah in almost every culture in the universe? Wasn't part of the plan to use the KH as the religious messiah, which is just what happened with the Fremen.


I wasn't saying the BG wanted a jihad, just that they saw the need for something to end the stagnation of humanity. The MP did plant myths and legends but I that was for any Sister to use, I don't know that it was all done for the KH.
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 24 Oct 2008 14:33

Freakzilla wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:
Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:I always thought that they would have placed the KH on the Imperial Throne and shaped humanity and the Empire in the way that they thought was best. With Bene Gesserit training and OM from both sexes and Precient ability, this would have been the Perfect means for the Bene Gesserit to manipulate the Human race into what they wanted.


I don't know...I always thought that the Breeding program and finally the KH would be to something much more "important" for humanity.

I can't conciliate a explanation for why the BG didn't want a Jihad and a reason for the KH at the same time.


Wasn't there something about the BG using the missionaria protectiva, seeding religions about a messiah in almost every culture in the universe? Wasn't part of the plan to use the KH as the religious messiah, which is just what happened with the Fremen.


I wasn't saying the BG wanted a jihad, just that they saw the need for something to end the stagnation of humanity. The MP did plant myths and legends but I that was for any Sister to use, I don't know that it was all done for the KH.


Yes, I understood by this way either when I read the book. I didn't find anything that relate the MP directly to their plan for the KH.

The MP was only to ensure the BG control over the wild civilizations and to protect any BG lost between them.

Maybe the BG plan was to mingle the human genes by the same process that happenned to Siona and Duncan: Marring KH and Irulan, and make them have many many babies.
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Postby Laphtiya » 25 Oct 2008 07:39

I realise that it was used to show the BG in a positive light, but it is not all impossible that they could have used the KH and the MP to manipulate the populace. In my mind, the BG never did anything that was truly seperate to the other. They saw things in a larger scope than normal people did, so perhaps there was a link between the two. I'll have to re-read Dune to see if there are any hints to their plan. It had to be more than just a male BG other wise why bother with linking all the bloodlines?

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Oct 2008 12:52

Laphtiya wrote:I realise that it was used to show the BG in a positive light, but it is not all impossible that they could have used the KH and the MP to manipulate the populace. In my mind, the BG never did anything that was truly seperate to the other. They saw things in a larger scope than normal people did, so perhaps there was a link between the two. I'll have to re-read Dune to see if there are any hints to their plan. It had to be more than just a male BG other wise why bother with linking all the bloodlines?


I don't think they were worried as much about linking the bloodlines for political reasons, though I'm sure they were aware of that side of it and taking full advantage of this. I think the planned linking of bloodlines was simply part of breeding for the KH, and the political ramifications were side effects, even if that side effect was planned to be used as well.

I'm sure the BG had plans for the political effects of cross breeding major houses, but I don't think that was their prime concern.
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Postby Tyrant » 27 Oct 2008 17:25

what exactly is the MA?...i havent read paul of dune yet...and i read thru the last 2 books so fast to end the suffering
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Postby SandChigger » 27 Oct 2008 18:13

It was in Sadworms:

Murbella held out her hand like a mendicant asking for alms. "The people want to believe. For thousands of years, our Missionaria Protectiva wove religious beliefs among populations. Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva."

The other women, especially Kiria, seemed to like the idea. Accadia scowled down at her Ridulian crystal sheets, as if trying to find profound answers written in the dense characters.

Accadia was the only one in that gaggle of bints that had a lick a' sense. :roll:

I 'bout laughed my ass of when I read that one the first time last year. :lol:
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BG and KH

Postby Wonder » 15 Dec 2008 22:52

The early BG were looking to create powerful icons that would advance their agenda. POWER. They were no different than any of the other greats in the quest to control the universe and do it from behind the scenes. They were very careful to keep the mystery of Sheeana at it's peak.

The BG were a bit shortsighted in this, contrary to their claim that they plan for the next thousand years. Odrade makes this criticism of Bellonda in ChD and this brings to light the comment the worm makes about the BG and his being condemned to responsibility, that they knew the necessity to care for humans but somewhere along the line lost their focus.

Remember, when it was discovered that Sheeana could control the worms, the BG had to make a decision either to continue being sly and selfish or to use their talents in a noble way. Fortunately, we had Odrade, the one who made the ultimate decision, and the ultimate sacrifice, to change the purpose and direction of their "secret society."
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