Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Dune 7

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Naïve mind
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby Naïve mind » 29 Aug 2012 13:47

gurensan wrote:Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.


Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.

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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby Omphalos » 29 Aug 2012 16:41

Naïve mind wrote:
gurensan wrote:Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.


Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.


Bullshit. Don't believe a word of what these two fucktards say. There was no "outline." When Herbert got an idea for a character he didn't sit down and put it on paper. He cut out magazine photos and put images together like Jim Carey's character did in The Truman Show. When he got a story idea he sat down and typed a story or a passage, or put together research together and saved it with margin notes until he was ready to take a crack. Or he wrote a long letter to someone to bounce the idea off of them and see what they thought. He never, ever sat down and did a "I., A., 1., a.," type of thing. Ive been to the Herbert archives in Fullerton three times and I have seen every damn thing that someone though to save from his office, and there is nothing of the kind in there. I've looked through the files for all of his surviving newspaper articles and there is not one damn outline anywhere in there.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are lying liars of lies. There is no truth at all to what they say. Not even a kernel.

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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby trang » 29 Aug 2012 18:04

Omphalos wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
gurensan wrote:Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.


Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.


Bullshit. Don't believe a word of what these two fucktards say. There was no "outline." When Herbert got an idea for a character he didn't sit down and put it on paper. He cut out magazine photos and put images together like Jim Carey's character did in The Truman Show. When he got a story idea he sat down and typed a story or a passage, or put together research together and saved it with margin notes until he was ready to take a crack. Or he wrote a long letter to someone to bounce the idea off of them and see what they thought. He never, ever sat down and did a "I., A., 1., a.," type of thing. Ive been to the Herbert archives in Fullerton three times and I have seen every damn thing that someone though to save from his office, and there is nothing of the kind in there. I've looked through the files for all of his surviving newspaper articles and there is not one damn outline anywhere in there.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are lying liars of lies. There is no truth at all to what they say. Not even a kernel.


So let me get this straight.. they are liars and there was no outline... just making sure:)
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queotic
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby queotic » 05 Sep 2012 06:46

certainly possible. I've considered wither the dune 7 book would be placed even further in the future and not be centered around the no-ship but rather a universe with them removed.


Going with Herbert's habit of hiding things in plain sight, I believe that, if there were to be a "Dune 7," it would have been set 10,000 years after the events of Children of Dune. In Heretics, one of the epigraphs is:

Ten thousand years since Leto II began his metamorphosis from human into the sandworm of Rakis and historians still argue over his motives. Was he driven by the desire for long life? He lived more than ten times the normal span of three hundred SY, but consider the price he paid. Was it the lure of power? He is called the Tyrant for good reason but what did power bring him that a human might want? Was he driven to save humankind from itself? We have only his own words about his Golden Path to answer this and I cannot accept the self-serving records of Dar-es-Balat. Might there have been other gratifications, which only his experiences would illuminate? Without better evidence the question is moot. We are reduced to saying only that "He did it!" The physical fact alone is undeniable.

-The Metamorphosis of Leto II, 10,000th Anniversary Peroration by Gaus Andaud

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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby distrans » 27 Sep 2017 21:23

SandRider wrote:
if we are intending to come to some conclusions about what Frank Herbert intended for "Dune 7",
we must consider the possibility that he had no intentions at all ....



He was a fan of Alan watts after all...

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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby xcalibur » 11 Mar 2019 19:16

hope you don't mind me replying to an old thread!

I think a Dune 7 was planned. I don't know if the outline & notes existed, or whether these were fabricated by Brian & Kevin. if any such notes exist, no matter how abstract or incoherent, it is a travesty not to publish them. But Brian & Kevin won't publish, because either A) they don't exist, or B) they contradict their bilge.

there's an overarching structure to the Dune novels: two trilogies, punctuated by God Emperor. the first trilogy centers on Paul Muad'dib, the Faufreluches, Jihad etc, while the second trilogy is focused on the aftermath of the Scattering, the war with Honored Matres, etc. in both trilogies, the books follow each other sequentially. the exception is God Emperor, the lone centerpiece, placed between the trilogies and separated from them by millennia.

based on this design, I'm almost certain that Dune 7 was planned, would've been set just after Chapterhouse, and would've been the final book. but, due to Frank's death, we must accept the attitude of the knife and be grateful for what we've got.
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Mar 2019 13:05

xcalibur wrote:hope you don't mind me replying to an old thread!


I encourage it. I'd rather have one long thread on a topic than a bunch of duplicates.
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby the rev » 19 Mar 2019 06:16

The first time I saw a reference to a cliffhanger I did a double take. Felt like I'd missed a book or a chapter or several pages. When I checked I was right, it ended like I thought it did. The cliffhanger is nonsense.

We'll never know and I don't feel a need to know, if Frank was planning a sequel. If he was it was in it's very earliest stages, roughest of outlines. Any further then that and they'd have published it for big $$. Any unreleased original material is gold. They've kept a tight wrap on it which means they're either lying which I feel is less likely, they aren't that creative. Or it's just an idea or two which they either ignored or ham-fistedly buried in all the nonsense.

I feel the ending is perfect, it's open ended. Like the ending to Destination:Void or Children of Dune or Whipping Star. Hell if he'd stopped at Dune Messiah that ending would have been fine. Too good of a writer not to finish a book the right way. The only reason to end a book in a cliffhanger is if you're worried about the sequel's pre-sales. (R R Martin?)

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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Mar 2019 09:13

I agree, there's no cliffhanger. No more than at the end of GEoD. Sure, I wanted to know what happened next, but I didn't expect it to be anything that would threaten humanity, it would just have been... what happened next.
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Mar 2019 10:26

I don't think I'd call the end of CH:D a cliffhanger, but then again the only book in the entire series that feels like it needed a sequel was Heretics. The rest of them work as standalone stories that expand on the universe and themes. But while i don't think CH:D ends on a cliffhanger, I definitely think he was moving the story towards a huge revelation for us, so as to explain a lot of the 'why' of the previous books. Unless I'm very mistaken about where he was going with the series (and I might be!) I don't think he had wrapped up the thesis of the series, if you will, by the end of CH:D. I mean, he had definitely told what he wanted to tell as early as Dune itself, in terms of ecology, and not following charismatic leaders, but the entire political ramification of how humanity could ever get away from following charismatic leaders was only beginning to be suggested in GEoD, and hints at how it might shift to something else brought up in Heretics and CH:D.

The sheer amount of questions and speculation we have regarding M&D, 'the net', what Duncan was thinking in purging the computer before jumping out, and why he had full access to his serial memories, are all - I think - tied in together and were going to be explained in Dune 7. And especially the manner in which Sheeana was going to have a significant impact wasn't clarified yet, together with how Duncan was going to have an impact on anything. HoD and CH:D were practically only the prologue to Duncan's story by the feel of it, and his main contribution was going to come next. All we got from him so far was being a serial ghola awakened, and knowing what's involved in a double-imprinting. Beyond that he had almost no agency, and based on his musings in CH:D especially I feel like his musings were leading up to something.
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Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Postby SadisticCynic » 19 Mar 2019 16:30

georgiedenbro wrote: ...I mean, he had definitely told what he wanted to tell as early as Dune itself, in terms of ecology, and not following charismatic leaders...


Just one comment on that, I'm fairly certain there's a quote from Herbert saying that the first three were conceived together.
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