• Register
  • Login
  •          

    Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Image
      Dune 7

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, SandRider

    Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby SandRider » 23 Oct 2010 12:29

    HB Jack, in the Chapterhouse ending thread, wrote:(There's the whole other question of whether this chapter is Frank's way of saying goodbye to Dune; that Daniel and Marty represent Frank and Beverly, and the no-ship's escape from D & M represents the release of the Dune creators' hold on their creation. As interesting - and, in a way, desirable - that idea is, it runs counter to the intention of this thread, I expect. So I'll say no more about it).


    and we'll say more about that here ...

    this issue needs to hashed thru, too; I've been one of those that've held to that line - Chapterhouse did not have a "cliff-hanger" ending
    as much as an "open ending" - cf Frank's recorded talk with McNelly about "leaving things for the reader", the epilogue dedication to Beverly
    that immediately follows the last chapter; the last line - "Gholas. He's welcome to them." - a disinterest in raising the dead ?

    I think that Frank probably thought about another Dune book, may have even mentioned it to Brian, or someone else who might've
    mentioned it to Brian ... he may or may not have begun the process of building notes ... certainly his publishers had broached the
    subject, and it may have been something he was considering and would have done, had his health not failed .... he may also have
    had every intention in the world of ending the series right there ... as he could have ended it at Children of Dune or God-emperor ...
    obviously, Heretics & Chapterhouse were conceived as one "story" ...

    if we are intending to come to some conclusions about what Frank Herbert intended for "Dune 7",
    we must consider the possibility that he had no intentions at all ....
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
    ImageImage

    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
    ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Ampoliros » 23 Oct 2010 13:31

    certainly possible. I've considered wither the dune 7 book would be placed even further in the future and not be centered around the no-ship but rather a universe with them removed.
    Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus
    User avatar
    Ampoliros
     
    Posts: 2516
    Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
    Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Oct 2010 14:32

    When I finished Chapterhouse I was unaware that there was supposed to be more. It didn't seem like a normal ending by any means, but didn't really beg to be continued per say.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Omphalos » 23 Oct 2010 15:54

    Don't we have it from a source other than Spanks and Bobo or any of the HLP liars that FH actually did start some work on Dune 7?
    User avatar
    Omphalos
    Inglorious Bastard
     
    Posts: 6572
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
    Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Oct 2010 17:42

    Could he have changed his mind?

    IMHO there is an obvious gap for a seventh book... but real life events and particularity losing Bev (who iirc was involved in the Dune writing process) might have made him see things differently - thus the D&M scene.
    User avatar
    DuneFishUK
     
    Posts: 1987
    Joined: 25 May 2008 14:14
    Location: Cool Britannia

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 23 Oct 2010 18:34

    That was my thought as well - that he may have had plans to do a 7th book, but with the death of Bev, and perhaps news of his own cancer diagnosis, he turned the last chapter into part homage, part farewell.

    The only problem with this idea, I think, is that the last chapter gives a lot of in-story information about Daniel and Marty that serves better as preparation for a following book than it does as a conclusion. IMHO, anyway.

    It would be interesting to get hold of the article mentioned here:

    $2 million+ for Frank Herbert in three book deal
    No author listed
    Science Fiction Chronicle 3(8):1,4. May 1982.

    ... to see if confirms that Dune 7 was contracted.

    HBJ
    "The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
    - Carl Sagan

    I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
    - Iain Banks
    User avatar
    Hunchback Jack
     
    Posts: 1982
    Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
    Location: California, USA

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby D Pope » 23 Oct 2010 21:21

    I looked everywhere I could think of at copyright.gov hoping for a longshot chance there'd be something... got nothing, I guess you can't -or he didn't- copyright a book till it's written.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
    D Pope
     
    Posts: 1500
    Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
    Location: Grubville

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Unfront » 26 Oct 2010 17:14

    I never felt that Chapterhouse ended in a cliff hanger. I never gave it much thought until I read that the much vaunted "Dune 7" notes would yeald a story that would provide closure to the "cliff hanger."

    Instead of a Dune 7, we got a Dune 7 AND 8, complete with another useless book, Road to Dune. Sure, the dealted scenes and corerspondence were nice to read, but all of that information could have been posted on the website. Road to Dune was a real milker when it came to the cash grab. Obviously, there was not enough material so the publishers told Brian and Keith to re-write Dune as if it were their own - to wit we received "Spiceworld".
    Anything Dune not written by Frank Herbert is simply Fan Fiction.
    Unfront
     
    Posts: 100
    Joined: 18 Dec 2008 21:29
    Location: Portland

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby SandChigger » 26 Oct 2010 22:51

    What was the percentage of their shit ("Spice World" & the four short stories) compared to the deleted chapters & letters, etc. (=FH stuff) again... about 50%? :roll:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 26 Oct 2010 23:28

    More than 2/3rds. In my UK PB, the missing chapters and letters were 120 pages out of 380.

    HBJ
    "The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
    - Carl Sagan

    I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
    - Iain Banks
    User avatar
    Hunchback Jack
     
    Posts: 1982
    Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
    Location: California, USA

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby merkin muffley » 27 Oct 2010 00:24

    "Open ending" seems like a more accurate description of the ending than "cliff-hanger" to me. The Marty and Daniel dialogue does express a certain amount of weariness with the Dune universe and a detachment from it.
    Last edited by merkin muffley on 27 Oct 2010 09:57, edited 1 time in total.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Shaitan » 27 Oct 2010 13:54

    merkin muffley wrote:"Open ending" seems like a more accurate description of the ending than "cliff-hanger" to me. The Marty and Daniel dialogue does express a certain amount of weariness with the Dune universe and a detachment from it.


    It's all too easy to get burned out on one's own creative vision -- particularly when it's a highly commercially viable property that you have "non-passion" motivations for continuing past its, shall we say, 'natural' lifespan. Plus, FH was already sick by that time as I understand it, and I also know all too well what it's like to have such distractions in one's life.
    "When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro." -Hunter S. Thompson
    "Man, a guy gets drunk *once* and it's all anyone remembers..." -HBJ
    User avatar
    Shaitan
     
    Posts: 292
    Joined: 27 Aug 2010 22:52
    Location: Freeport, Maine USA

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 01 Nov 2010 10:08

    I can't remember where I read it (McNelly or Spinrad interview?), but I seem to recall Frank describing how he had wanted Dune to be over several times throughout writing the six books, but always had his arm twisted by publishers to keep writing them. I think Children of Dune was one such "conclusion," as well as God Emperor. It seems Frank was always ready to jump back into the series if he needed to. Considering that both Heretics and Chapterhouse definitely seemed to be leading up to something big, I think it's fair to assume that Frank probably would have gotten around to writing more Dune.

    I think the real question is "Would Dune 7 have been the conclusion at all?" It could have been Dune 8 or 9, for all we know. I'm not suggesting that we work towards writing more than one book, however I think this point should be considered. I know that in the past we've discussed the esthetically-pleasing idea of two trilogies with God Emperor sandwiched in between as the glittering centerpiece. I still think that would be ideal.
    "The Idahos were never ordinary people."
    -Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza
    User avatar
    Drunken Idaho
     
    Posts: 1197
    Joined: 15 Sep 2008 23:56
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby dogbone » 14 Dec 2011 01:48

    Personally, i think FH clearly intended to write more, whether that changed do to his illness or Bevs death, the original intent was to write more. I see FH as one of those writers who did the hard work, who developed character arcs that stayed true to form, carefully crafted plots hidden in plain sight and relishing the challenge of surprising even the most jaded reader. Ending it here feels like taking the easy way out ("what's in the briefcase," "what ever you want it to be!"), which doesn't strike me as something Herbert would have done. Just as he did with his other books, he was setting up the pins to get ready to knock them down. He'd primed Sheeana to do something for 2 books and she was finally getting ready to unveil her art (CD 404), Duncan's still trying to figure out what the Tleilaxu did to him and the Honored Matres are running from something. Herbert easily could have concluded the series to a satisfying end without adding these elements but chose to do the painstaking work of building the plot lines
    dogbone
     
    Posts: 12
    Joined: 29 Nov 2011 22:52

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Dec 2011 09:21

    Sure he planned to write more, but I still don't see the ending of CH:D as a cliffhanger.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18061
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby trang » 14 Dec 2011 10:11

    I just went with the masses on using the term Cliffhanger. It was just the end of the book and I saw more ahead, and desperately wanted more ahead, believed 100 percent he planned for more, but sadly that didn't happen, by Franks hand.
    "Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

    Image

    "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
    But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.."
    User avatar
    trang
     
    Posts: 1221
    Joined: 06 May 2008 18:59
    Location: Hot Tub Time Machine

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby lotek » 14 Dec 2011 10:22

    And thus, nothing happened, it was all just a dream fart.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Dec 2011 21:41

    Would "Dune 7" have been the last book?
    I bring nothing to the table.
    User avatar
    JustSomeGuy
     
    Posts: 791
    Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:02

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Dec 2011 21:51

    Not if people kept buying them.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18061
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Dec 2011 01:58

    Freakzilla wrote:Not if people kept buying them.


    :lol: Quoted for truth. Or, if FH died after writing it, then yes it would have been the last book.

    Children of Dune was supposed to be the last one remember.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 15 Dec 2011 20:35

    I like the sound of "Dune 7," and I think it would have been a good place to stop. Seven, the number of completion. Well, that's just my superstitious mind.
    I bring nothing to the table.
    User avatar
    JustSomeGuy
     
    Posts: 791
    Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:02

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Dec 2011 22:57

    I think if FH had kept writing past the end of the story arc started in Heretics it probably would have run the risk of getting pretty bad.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby pardot » 08 Jan 2012 01:07

    Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here'
    -from 'Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib' by the Princess Irulan


    I never saw the end of 'Chapterhouse' as a cliffhanger. Rather it seemed like an explosion of possibilities - had Herbert lived longer and wrote more, he could have taken the story anywhere. Except 'Terminator' ripoffs :)
    pardot
     
    Posts: 4
    Joined: 08 Jan 2012 00:46

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby gurensan » 21 Apr 2012 21:08

    Still want to see these ... "notes."

    Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.

    Seemed pretty clear to me he'd had more to do, but was just getting tired.
    If you fart in the wilderness, and a bear eats you before you can smell it, does it matter if it makes an odor?
    gurensan
     
    Posts: 96
    Joined: 21 Apr 2012 19:26

    Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

    Postby tenfingersofdoom » 28 Aug 2012 21:29

    SandChigger wrote:What was the percentage of their shit ("Spice World" & the four short stories) compared to the deleted chapters & letters, etc. (=FH stuff) again... about 50%? :roll:


    "spice world" was too childish to be frank's work, HOWEVER since it was named "spice world" we immediately need ginger spice and scary spice to play duncan and murbella in any future adaptations or sequels.

    If you wanna be my ghola,
    you gotta get with my friends,
    cloning Duncans forever,
    fealty never ends!

    I am so bored.
    Kevin J. Anderson is so stupid he thinks he invented The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen since he wrote the movie tie-in.
    tenfingersofdoom
     
    Posts: 65
    Joined: 03 Jun 2010 22:08

    Next

    Return to ˱

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest