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    Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

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      Dune 7

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    Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Nov 2010 02:48

    This thread is about the second of three (iirc) appearances in Chapterhouse by Marty & Daniel. There is a LOT more here than I had expected. The entire chapter is worth a read, actually. Lots of good stuff relevant to OHDC, besides the subject of M&D.

    And here are the bits relevant to M&D:

    Frank Herbert, in Chapterhouse: Dune, wrote:He fell asleep to dream he was in the ship's armory. It was a dream touched by realities. The ship remained a weapons factory as it actually had become. Odrade was talking to him in the dream armory. "I make decisions of necessity, Duncan. Little likelihood you'll break out and run amok."
    "I am too much the Mentat for that!" How self-important his dream voice! I'm dreaming and I know I dream. Why am I in the armory with Odrade?
    A list of weapons scrolled before his eyes. Atomics. (He saw big blasters and deadly dusts.) Lasguns. (No counting the various models.) Bacteriologicals.
    The scroll was interrupted by Odrade's voice. "We can assume smugglers concentrate as usual on small things that bring a big price. "
    "Soostones, of course." Still self-important. I'm not that way! "Assassination weapons," she said. "Plans and specifications for new devices." "Theft of trade secrets is a big item with smugglers." I'm insufferable!
    "There are always medicines and the diseases that require them," she said.
    Where is she? I can hear her but I can't see her. "Do Honored Matres know our universe harbors blackguards not above sowing the problem before providing the solution?" Blackguards? I never use that word.
    "All things relative, Duncan. They burned Lampadas and butchered four million of our finest."
    He awoke and sat upright. Specifications for new devices! There it was in delicate detail, a way to miniaturize Holzmann generators. Two centimeters, no more. And much cheaper! How was that smuggled into my mind?

    ...

    Frank Herbert, in Chapterhouse: Dune, wrote:Energizers appeared next. He had a private arsenal of those: ways of increasing capacities of your troops.
    Abruptly, the shimmering net from his vision replaced scrolling weapons and he
    saw the elderly couple in their garden. They glared at him. The man's voice became audible. "Stop spying on us!"
    Idaho gripped the arms of his chair and jerked himself forward but the vision disappeared before he could study details.
    Spying?

    He sensed a residue of the scroll in his mind, no longer visible but a musing voice . . . masculine.
    "Defenses often must take on characteristics of the attack weapons. Sometimes, however, simple systems can divert the most devastating weapons."
    Simple systems! He laughed aloud. "Miles! Where the hell are you, Teg? I have your disguised attack vessels! Inflated decoys! Empty except for a miniature Holzmann generator and lasgun." He added this to his Archives transmissions.
    When he was finished, he asked himself once more about the visions. Influencing my dreams? What have I tapped?
    In every spare minute since becoming Teg's Weapons Master, he had been calling up Archival records. There had to be some clue in all of that massive accumulation!
    Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had called his energy source.
    A wave system that ignored light speed's limits. Light speed obviously did not limit foldspace ships. Techys?

    "It works because it works," Idaho muttered. "Faith. Like any other religion."
    Mentats squirreled away much seemingly inconsequential data. He had a storehouse marked "Techys" and proceeded to go through it without satisfaction.
    Not even Guild Navigators professed knowledge of how they guided foldspace ships. Ixian scientists made machines to duplicate Navigator abilities but still could not define what they did.
    "Holzmann's formulae can be trusted."
    No one claimed to understand Holzmann. They merely used his formulae because they worked. It was the "ether" of space travel. You folded space. One instant you were here and the next instant you were countless parsecs distant.
    Someone "out there" has found another way to use Holzmann's theories! It was a full Mentat Projection. He knew its accuracy from the new questions it produced.
    Murbella's Other Memory ramblings haunted him now even though he recognized basic Bene Gesserit teachings in them.
    Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. This is the danger of entrenched bureaucracy to its subject population. Even spoils systems are preferable because levels of tolerance are lower and the corrupt can be thrown out periodically. Entrenched bureaucracy seldom can be touched short of violence. Beware when Civil Service and Military join hands!
    The Honored Matre achievement. Power for the sake of power . . . an aristocracy bred from unbalanced stock.
    Who were those people he saw? Strong enough to drive out Honored Matres. He knew it for a Projection datum.
    Idaho found this realization profoundly dislocating. Honored Matres fugitives!
    Barbaric but ignorant in the way of all such raiders even from before the Vandals. Moved by impulsive greed as much as by any other force. "Take Roman gold!" They filtered all distractions out of awareness. It was a stupefying ignorance that faltered only when the more sophisticated culture insinuated itself into the . . .
    Abruptly, he saw what Odrade was doing.
    Gods below! What a fragile plan!
    He pressed his palms against his eyes and forced himself not to cry out in anguish. Let them think I'm tired. But seeing Odrade's plan told him also he would lose Murbella . . . one way or another.

    So here's what I gather from this, in point form because it's fracking late...

    - "Stop spying on us!" is Daniel acting cheeky.
    - Marty and Daniel are using Holzmann tech in a unique way (something to do with tachyon) to spy on Duncan, manipulate his dreams, deploy their net, and smuggle tech ideas into his mind. This means that the whole Net thing is a lot more rooted in conventional Dune physics than I had suspected this afternoon.
    - The ability to manipulate dreams really lends itself to why M&D might compare themselves to God in the final chapter.
    - Notice the recurring theme of smuggling. Bravo Mr. Herbert.
    - Marty & Daniel are projecting a fake version of Duncan into his dream, solely for the purpose of coming to the conclusions about tech to use against the HM. Marty & Daniel are helping them win. Why? Because they are on the same side as Duncan and the BG in wanting to extinguish the less "sophisticated culture."
    - And if Marty & Daniel are of such sophistication, this suggests to me that they may not end up being the bad guys by the time all this is over.
    - This also demonstrates why M&D might consider Duncan to be such a "big Mentat." They knew he was capable of computing ingenious weapons systems with the subtlest of hints.
    - I have to ask: Did M&D intend for Duncan to find the whole dream and revelation to be suspicious, or were they being sloppy in not anticipating that the same way they did not anticipate Duncan being able to see the Net?
    - Also consider this. Both M&D and the Tleilaxu influenced Duncan in one way or another for the sole purpose of bringing down the Honored Matres. Interesting that the BT Masters and these all-powerful facedancers share a common cause. This should be considered when it comes to figuring out what becomes of Scytale.

    So, above we have possible answers regarding M&D's motivations, technology, capabilities, goals, and personalities. I'm sure there's more to be discussed here, so lets see if we can debate these points or flesh them out. Plus there's still a whole other M&D scene if someone wants to post that. I'd do it if I didn't have to wake up in 4.5 hours.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandRider » 05 Nov 2010 14:44

    >> Dune Discussion >> General Dune Discussion >> Daniel and Marty
    viewtopic.php?p=60772#p60772
    I, The SandRider, on 27 August 2009, wrote:I believe "Dune 7" would have revolved around Marty & Daniel
    teaching the Bene Gesserit how to be human.

    I think I still might believe this, in that in would fit into a "theme" -
    Muad'Dib taught the Bene Gesserit a lesson ...
    Leto II taught them another ...




    caveat: said it before & will say it again now, the last two books being my least favorites,
    I have not read thru them as novels in many a year; now, of course, it's apparent that to
    have any real discussion of a "Dune7", if that book is to complete a "post-Leto" trilogy,
    both the books are going to have be carefully looked at ... with that then, y'all correct
    anything incorrect in my comments ...
    Drunken Idaho wrote:smuggle tech ideas into his mind.

    coming to the conclusions about tech to use against the HM. Marty & Daniel are helping them win. Why? Because they are on the same side as Duncan and the BG in wanting to extinguish the less "sophisticated culture."

    they may not end up being the bad guys by the time all this is over.

    Both M&D and the Tleilaxu influenced Duncan in one way or another for the sole purpose of bringing down the Honored Matres.


    who are the "Enemy of Many Faces ?" - who is the enemy the Honored Matres are running from ?
    why do we assume the Honored Matres are enemies of the Bene Gesserit ?
    only because they are attacking and destroying the Bene Gesserit ?
    isn't there a Greater Purpose behind the Honored Matres' actions ?

    are Marty & Daniel of the "Enemy of Many Faces" ? or a separate faction ?
    are they "helping" Duncan to fight the Honored Matres, or the greater enemy ?

    is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
    with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?

    at the end of Chapterhouse, the Honored Matres and Bene Gesserit have combined
    their forces - against whom ?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Nov 2010 15:08

    SandRider wrote:who are the "Enemy of Many Faces ?" - who is the enemy the Honored Matres are running from ?
    why do we assume the Honored Matres are enemies of the Bene Gesserit ?
    only because they are attacking and destroying the Bene Gesserit ?
    isn't there a Greater Purpose behind the Honored Matres' actions ?

    are Marty & Daniel of the "Enemy of Many Faces" ? or a separate faction ?
    are they "helping" Duncan to fight the Honored Matres, or the greater enemy ?

    is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
    with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?

    at the end of Chapterhouse, the Honored Matres and Bene Gesserit have combined
    their forces - against whom ?


    Alrighty, let me try to put my personal opinions to these questions:

    D&M the enemy of many faces - seems that way. It would make sense, they're obviously face dancers, and face dancers take on many faces.

    Were the HM the enemy of the BG - well, yes, in that everything seemed to be the enemy of the HM. They'd been running for so long and become so terrified that they pretty much seemed to just run over everything in their path, consuming to keep going. Greater purpose behind the HM actions? I can't imagine one myself.

    BG and HM joined forces, against whome? Possibly no one. Maybe the EoMF would no longer feel the need to wipe them out once they'd joined with the BG. Or maybe the opposite, maybe that makes them more of a target and now the EoMF will want to take both out.

    I don't think there's a greater enemy personally, just that the BG/Duncan are assuming that the EoMF must be their enemy as well for some reason. Then again, maybe there is a greater enemy (I remain convinced the EoMF must be D&M though, unless they're a splinter group... hmmmm, this actually is an interesting idea...) and they want to "test" the noship crew to possibly use them as a weapon.


    I don't personally see the idea of the replay of the Jihad coming into this, I think something more subtle was going on.

    One big big question is - WHY were the EoMF even bothering to chase down the HM? Were the HM so terrible that the EoMF just felt they had to be destroyed?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Superdog » 05 Nov 2010 15:49

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:One big big question is - WHY were the EoMF even bothering to chase down the HM? Were the HM so terrible that the EoMF just felt they had to be destroyed?


    Presumably the HM attacked them and tried to conquer them. HM don't play well with others, and seem to try and make enemies of everyone.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Nov 2010 16:06

    SandRider wrote:caveat: said it before & will say it again now, the last two books being my least favorites,
    I have not read thru them as novels in many a year; now, of course, it's apparent that to
    have any real discussion of a "Dune7", if that book is to complete a "post-Leto" trilogy,
    both the books are going to have be carefully looked at ...


    I like them more every time I read them. In my opinion, Frank's writing only got better as the series progressed. Do yourself a favour and read them! :D

    SandRider wrote:is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
    with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?


    I'm also skeptical of this being the case. But while we're speculating on the subject, I'm going to make propose that we seriously consider the Hacks' answer to this question. And let me preface this by saying that the following is actually the one thing I really liked about their terrible excuse for a Dune conclusion. Not only did I like the following idea, but it actually got me really excited when I read it. I've mentioned it on here before, and I still maintain that if there were any notes from Frank, this was among them:

    We already know that the HM are the fusion of Scattered BG and Fishspeakers. What Cunters of Dune revealed (via Murbella tripping on some spice crackers :roll: ) was that the inciting incident that caused them to rally together was the liberation and revival of an isolated group of female Tleilaxu: Axolotl Tanks. After being revived they teamed up with Fishspeakers and BG and in their rage, they lost any BG sensibility and proceeded destroy any Scattered Tleilaxu they could find (what was the term for Scattered BT again?). Upon returning to the old empire, they did specifically target the BT early on, didn't they? If you think about it, they are paired opposites as societies: While both are deeply religious, and both have Leto II as either a God (Dur) or a prophet, but both exercise gender-based superiority.

    I know I've broken a forum rule by bringing this up, but I think it's worth considering. The point is, as opposed to a Butlerian-style crusade against BT and BT-related techniques, the motivation might simply be pure revenge.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Nov 2010 16:12

    By the way, here's Freak's convenient summary of the chapter under discussion, just to add some context to the excerpt in the OP:

    Freakzilla wrote:Our household god is this thing we carry forward generation after generation:
    our message for humankind if it matures. The closest thing we have to a
    household goddess is a failed Reverend Mother -- Chenoeh there in her niche.

    -Darwi Odrade

    Duncan retreats into his mentat abilities. He spends as much time with Murbella as their duties allow. She tries not to act like nothing has changed but he can feel them pulling apart. She tries to explain to him how her sisters view emotions, don't give someone a stick with which to beat you. Murbella spends a lot of time with her Other Memory now. It reveals that Fish Speaker democracy became Honored Matre autocracy. They need information about their enemy from her. Odrade reasures Duncan that she will go through a period of adjustment. He realizes she is a hybrid now. They have sex and Murbella hopes she's pregnant again. Duncan dreams of the weapons factory they had turned the no-ship's armory into. Weapons scroll before his eyes. He sees a way to miniturize Holzmann generators sown to two centimeters, cheaper too. This is how they will englobe the Honored Matres. Sends it to archives and flags Bell and Odrade. Even awake, he can still see the weapons scroll. It's abruptly replaced by the net and the old couple in the garden. They tell him to stop spying on them and the vision disappears. Duncan realizes how they will build Teg's disguised attack ships, inflated decoys with a tiny holzmann generator and a lasgun. He sends this to archives too. He wonders what he's tapped into and comes to the mentat projection that someone out in The Scattering has found another way to use hozmann theory. He projects that the old people in his vision had driven out the Honored Matres. They are fugatives, not conquerers. He sees what Odrade is doing now, such a fragile plan. One way or another, it means he will lose Murbella.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SadisticCynic » 05 Nov 2010 19:44

    Were the HM the enemy of the BG - well, yes, in that everything seemed to be the enemy of the HM. They'd been running for so long and become so terrified that they pretty much seemed to just run over everything in their path, consuming to keep going. Greater purpose behind the HM actions? I can't imagine one myself.



    Further to this:

    I don't know about a 'Greater Purpose', but I think there are other motivations behind the HM actions. They want what the BG have in terms of immunity to disease and hence to biological weaponry. Also, following Paul and Kynes comments in the dining room scene in Dune*, the HM and the BG are somewhat similar e.g. all female, superb bodily control, addicted to some substance etc thus they are naturally in competition with each other.

    However, the BG view the HM as children, or perhaps as adolescents, rather than mature humans, hence their need for destruction. They are somehow both similar to, and the antithesis of, the BG. The BG see this as a step backward for the maturation of humanity which is summed up by "whores".

    Taraza wrote:They try to copy us, yet they sell themselves for power and make a mockery of
    everything we represent. Honored Matres!


    They can't help but be enemies.

    Dunno if any of that makes sense but it sure sounds good. :)

    *These comments:

    Paul wrote:Most educated people know
    that the worst potential competition for any young organism can come from its
    own kind.


    Kynes wrote:The struggle between life elements is the struggle for
    the free energy of a system.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Nov 2010 20:51

    Drunken Idaho wrote:By the way, here's Freak's convenient summary of the chapter under discussion, just to add some context to the excerpt in the OP:

    Freakzilla wrote:Our household god is this thing we carry forward generation after generation:
    our message for humankind if it matures. The closest thing we have to a
    household goddess is a failed Reverend Mother -- Chenoeh there in her niche.

    -Darwi Odrade

    ... She tries not to act like nothing has changed...


    Nice double negative there, Freak. :lol:
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Nov 2010 20:55

    sown

    :doh:
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Lundse » 06 Nov 2010 09:51

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:BG and HM joined forces, against whome? Possibly no one. Maybe the EoMF would no longer feel the need to wipe them out once they'd joined with the BG. Or maybe the opposite, maybe that makes them more of a target and now the EoMF will want to take both out.


    I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Any "Dune 7" would have been about this dilemma - are the BG/HM a benign force? Will they continue to be? Or will M&D swoop in and "fix" everything?
    Like Heretics and Chapterhouse, I think we can assume the teaching to be a bit more heavyhanded than the subtleties of the first four novels; M&D might very well come out on the pages in their deliberation between letting humanity go it's own course, vs. making sure the HM/BG do not become such a danger that they need to be stopped.
    This would also have made the assimilation of the HM something of a race against time - if the BG could not do it, properly, by the time M&D found them/arrived in the old empire/their deadline was up... bad things could have happened.

    Uh... And if M&D came out clean about these matters, we'd have the whole problem of 'electing to be god' but also, and maybe more interestingly, the BG having to chose whether they 'speak for humanity'.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Nov 2010 11:01

    Y'all are assuming the BG COULD assimilate all the HM. I think the HM that came back to the old empire is just a portion of them.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby inhuien » 06 Nov 2010 11:33

    Freakzilla wrote:Y'all are assuming the BG COULD assimilate all the HM. I think the HM that came back to the old empire is just a portion of them.

    It's not really an assumption more a remembrance.
    in HoD FH wrote:"They outnumber you at least ten thousand to one! We have seen the evidence." (Waff said)
    "One of us could defeat them all," Taraza said.
    Waff sat in silence, studying her. Was that merely a boast? You could never be
    sure when it came to the Bene Gesserit witches. They did things. The dark side
    of the magic universe belonged to them. On more than one occasion the witches
    had blunted the Shariat. Was it God's will that the true believers pass through
    another trial?

    Unless it was merely a boast, which I think not, The BG were a fermenting agent to all HM they encountered.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Nov 2010 13:14

    inhuien wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Y'all are assuming the BG COULD assimilate all the HM. I think the HM that came back to the old empire is just a portion of them.

    It's not really an assumption more a remembrance.
    in HoD FH wrote:"They outnumber you at least ten thousand to one! We have seen the evidence." (Waff said)
    "One of us could defeat them all," Taraza said.
    Waff sat in silence, studying her. Was that merely a boast? You could never be
    sure when it came to the Bene Gesserit witches. They did things. The dark side
    of the magic universe belonged to them. On more than one occasion the witches
    had blunted the Shariat. Was it God's will that the true believers pass through
    another trial?

    Unless it was merely a boast, which I think not, The BG were a fermenting agent to all HM they encountered.


    I think it was a boast and the HM could crush the BG easily.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby inhuien » 06 Nov 2010 13:43

    Oh sure if it was solely a question of crushing the BG that would have happened. The HM need some Reverend Mothers alive in order to learn their secrets of biological resistance, and the only way to attain that trick it to become a Reverend Mother. But we all know that.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandRider » 07 Nov 2010 10:27

    Shaitan wrote:The worst part about McDune is that KJA wove (stole) so many decent threads from the storyline which would have to also be used in any 'proper' OH Dune 7....like the fact that clearly, the HM didn't develop Obliterator technology on their own. They stole/seized/whored their way into possessing them and this implies any number of things about the Enemy that is chasing them back from the Scattering. This is one of so many things that will have to be wrestled out of the hands of hackery most foul before I can even talk about them without throwing up in my mouth a little. :puke:

    SandChigger wrote:(One suggestion: one way to start is not to refer to the weapons as "Obliterators". FH never did. The weapons didn't get that name until Hunters. Just like the no-ship was never the "Ithaca".)
    (Afterthought: also, am I muddling things or isn't there major confusion in McDune between the weapons the HMs would have used to sterilize Rakis, for example, and The Weapon? Has this been brought up somewhere?)

    Freakzilla wrote:Scytale had seen the dirty aftermath of many Bene Gesserit actions.
    Look at what happened to Dune! Burnt to cinders because you women of
    Shaitan chose that holy ground to challenge the whores. Even the
    revenants of our Prophet gone to their reward. Everyone dead!

    I asumed they nuked Rakis, the Bloodless Weapon doesn't burn things.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Nov 2010 22:14

    Well, not to dissagree too strongly, but I'll put in my two cents that the HM being descended from BT tanks sounded just like something FH would have done, somewhat explains their lack of OM, and explains some of their hostility towards the EoMF (being descended from BT).

    I'm all for not discussing those books, but that one point I'll say I actually like, and I don't think I would leave out of a Dune conclusion.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Nov 2010 00:11

    Isn't the missing or blocked OM rather something that the Tleilaxu engineered into their own genetic structure?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Superdog » 08 Nov 2010 01:12

    SandChigger wrote:Isn't the missing or blocked OM rather something that the Tleilaxu engineered into their own genetic structure?

    I believe it is mentioned at one point that RM descended from mated Tleilaxu have a OM block by default.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SadisticCynic » 08 Nov 2010 10:26

    Yup.

    Heretics of Dune wrote:The Tleilaxu secret must be in their sperm. Our tests prove that their
    sperm does not carry forward in a straight genetic fashion. Gaps occur.
    Every Tleilaxu we have examined has hidden his inner self from us. They
    are naturally immune to an Ixian Probe! Secrecy at the deepest levels,
    that is their ultimate armor and their ultimate weapon.
    — Bene Gesserit Analysis,
    Archives Code: BTXX441WOR
    Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby baudib » 07 Feb 2011 12:34

    The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.

    From an earlier chapter:

    Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby redbugpest » 07 Feb 2011 21:21

    baudib wrote:The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.

    From an earlier chapter:

    Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.


    Interesting thread.

    I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 07 Feb 2011 22:38

    That's certainly true. It's just conjecture at that point in the narrative.

    I recently reread chapter house dune, and I was specifically paying attention to the passages that talk about Marty and Daniel, and of the enemy of many faces. Almost nothing is spelled out explicitly, but the hints that they were face dancers becomes more and more compelling until martys and daniels final conversation makes their nature clear.

    So you can argue that these specific passages aren't conclusive, but the books as a whole makes it clear what FH intended. Even if you argue that their being face dancers it not proven, there's certainly no indication that they're anything else.

    HBJ
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Feb 2011 06:02

    And Fatboy crawls out of hiding to shill for the team! Go Piggie!
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby redbugpest » 08 Feb 2011 06:47

    Hunchback Jack wrote:That's certainly true. It's just conjecture at that point in the narrative.

    I recently reread chapter house dune, and I was specifically paying attention to the passages that talk about Marty and Daniel, and of the enemy of many faces. Almost nothing is spelled out explicitly, but the hints that they were face dancers becomes more and more compelling until martys and daniels final conversation makes their nature clear.

    So you can argue that these specific passages aren't conclusive, but the books as a whole makes it clear what FH intended. Even if you argue that their being face dancers it not proven, there's certainly no indication that they're anything else.

    HBJ


    I agree that, at that point, there is no other compelling plot seed for what M&D are at this point. :)
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2011 08:13

    the thing is you're thinking like the hack does, with no poetry or imagination...
    Artistic license for him means sticking whatever the fuck he pleases where he pleases just because "Frank didn't say he couldn't"

    That's a level of thinking of a lawyer with the moral compass of an unsupervised 8 year old raised by tv et cheap commercials.

    Again that's the difference between a writer and a piler of words, the writer knows when to stop, when to say "This is complete !"

    You can argue all you want, the facts are there. Even if it's 80% sure that DandM are FDs, making them "prostitute robots from the future" would only have been funny as a side project on "what not to do"
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