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    Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2011 08:36

    lotek wrote:That's a level of thinking of a lawyer with the moral compass of an unsupervised 8 year old raised by tv et cheap commercials.


    I put robotz in ur dunz lol
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Feb 2011 10:03

    (It's so cute when he tries to pretend that he's a real fan thinking deeply about Dune. :lol: )
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2011 10:08

    SandChigger wrote:(It's so cute when he tries to pretend that he's a real fan thinking deeply about Dune. :lol: )


    Lotek? Yeah, pathetic. :P
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Feb 2011 10:27

    :shock: :lol:
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby TheDukester » 08 Feb 2011 13:28

    Freakzilla wrote:I put robotz in ur dunz lol
    ~TehHaxor

    Ha! Nice one. :clap:
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Feb 2011 14:40

    redbugpest wrote:
    baudib wrote:The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.

    From an earlier chapter:

    Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.


    Interesting thread.

    I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."


    THIS quote with all the OTHER hints in the original books left NO ROOM for more conjecture about it, hackboy!
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2011 14:47

    What ELSE does FH hint at that they might be?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby merkin muffley » 08 Feb 2011 15:26

    redbugpest wrote:I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."


    :roll:
    Your argument is
    LAME.
    Almost as lame as making them robots.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2011 16:13

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:(It's so cute when he tries to pretend that he's a real fan thinking deeply about Dune. :lol: )


    Lotek? Yeah, pathetic. :P


    if that were me it would have been pqthetic, so not concerned :p

    Freakzilla wrote:
    lotek wrote:That's a level of thinking of a lawyer with the moral compass of an unsupervised 8 year old raised by tv et cheap commercials.


    I put robotz in ur dunz lol
    ~TehHaxor


    exactly !
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Nekhrun » 08 Feb 2011 17:19

    redbugpest wrote:
    baudib wrote:The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.

    From an earlier chapter:

    Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.


    Interesting thread.

    I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."

    You should totally do a video blog about that. All the KJA Special Buddies are doin' it.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Feb 2011 14:05

    RBP - yes, that particular passage, from the point of view of a character trying to figure out what D&M are, is merely conjecture. The rest of the passages we've discussed from the point of view of D&M themselves leave more or less zero doubt that they are descended from face dancers.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 09 Feb 2011 15:06

    redbugpest wrote:I agree that, at that point, there is no other compelling plot seed for what M&D are at this point. :)


    Sigh. Are there any other passages in the final two books that contain "other compelling plot seed"s for what Marty and Daniel are?

    I'm serious; there's a case that has to be made here. There are very strong suggestions - the strongest from M&D's own statements about themselves - that they are descended from Face Dancers. If you don't accept that as "proof", then provide quotes from the books to to support alternative theories about their nature. If you cannot, any argument that they are something else - disguised robots from the Butlerian Jihad, say - is far more speculative and baseless that the "unproven" Face Dancer theory.

    And "Frank didn't say they weren't robots" is not an argument. Frank didn't say they weren't a lot of things; he *did* imply strongly that they were Face Dancers.

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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 09 Feb 2011 16:43

    Hunchback Jack wrote:And "Frank didn't say they weren't robots" is not an argument. Frank didn't say they weren't a lot of things; he *did* imply strongly that they were Face Dancers.

    HBJ


    Frank never said Daniel and Marty were not...

    Monkeys ?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Feb 2011 17:35

    Hunchback Jack wrote:And "Frank didn't say they weren't robots" is not an argument.

    Neither is "but Kevin has said that there are notes showing a connection between the couple and the Butlerian Jihad".

    Alleged contents of outlines or notes or whatever are not evidence. Only verbatim quotes of contents can be considered.

    THERE IS NO PUBLICLY AVAILABLE EVIDENCE THAT ANY SUCH MATERIALS EVEN EXIST. They are therefore irrelevant.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 10 Feb 2011 06:47

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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Tleszer » 10 Feb 2011 09:17

    :laughing:
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Feb 2011 10:16

    WTF is that, his Glamour Shots pose?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 10 Feb 2011 10:34

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    Glamour Glow !
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby TheDukester » 10 Feb 2011 12:16

    Keith loves that one. He uses it in multiple places.

    Of course, being socially retarded, he doesn't realize it makes him look like the world's biggest, whitest, softest pussy. It's a complete "I'm a sensitive artist who's never done a hard day's work in my life" shot.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandRider » 10 Feb 2011 12:29

    that photo makes me unreasonably angry ....
    like that avatar Simon used to use ....
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby baudib » 10 Feb 2011 14:11

    Is there any connection between Marty & Daniel and Duncan's mental mosaic?
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Feb 2011 14:36

    baudib wrote:Is there any connection between Marty & Daniel and Duncan's mental mosaic?


    I believe that was just a mentat trick to extrapolate things.
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Feb 2011 19:23

    lotek wrote:Glamour Glow !

    :laughing-rolling:

    OK, you've nearly redeemed yourself again. ;)
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby lotek » 10 Feb 2011 20:48

    it begged to be used :)
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    Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

    Postby dogbone » 13 Dec 2011 22:41

    redbugpest wrote:
    Hunchback Jack wrote:That's certainly true. It's just conjecture at that point in the narrative.

    I recently reread chapter house dune, and I was specifically paying attention to the passages that talk about Marty and Daniel, and of the enemy of many faces. Almost nothing is spelled out explicitly, but the hints that they were face dancers becomes more and more compelling until martys and daniels final conversation makes their nature clear.

    So you can argue that these specific passages aren't conclusive, but the books as a whole makes it clear what FH intended. Even if you argue that their being face dancers it not proven, there's certainly no indication that they're anything else.

    HBJ


    I agree that, at that point, there is no other compelling plot seed for what M&D are at this point. :)


    Gotta add my agreement here. JMO but the whole reason that last scene with M&D is even possible is because Herbert spent pages, plot and probably a lot of thought setting it up through the evolution of the face dancers in CD. Their existence seems to be the unanticipated consequence of Face Dancers being able to assume the personae of those that they kill. I don't think he would throw away the work it took to build to that revelation (while hiding it in plain sight in that typically Herbertian way) just to take a massive turn in another direction. I just don't see him wasting well earned capital like that. It seems he began deliberately building that road in CD for a purpose.

    On a more intuitive level, it also feels like Herbert. From Ix and its robots to the BG and Paul, people have a habit of losing control of their creations in the Dune universe. The Tleilaxu losing control of their Face Dancers seems to fit that mold.
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