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    My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

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    My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Toccs » 08 Feb 2012 11:54

    Let me start off by saying that I have not read the Dune 7 "duolology" and I currently have no plans to do so. However I have read so many detailed synopsis', articles and reviews that I feel I have a decent grasp of what occurs in them. I have also seen and read several interviews with BH and KJA regarding the creative process.
    I'm going to share some of my thoughts on FH's intended conclusion in relation to the "conclusion" which has been presented, I will try to explain my reasoning as much as possible in order to avoid misunderstandings. I welcome all responses whether agreeing or disagreeing, my only goal is to discuss Dune with fellow fans.

    To begin, I do not consider Chapterhouse to have ended on a "cliffhanger", as with all of the previous Dune books it is self contained yet open ended. You could end the Dune series at any one of the books and not be left on a cliffhanger. That being said, I do believe that FH had given thought to a 7th book and like any good author had made notes regarding story outline and possible character developments as well as an endgame.
    I believe BH and KJA came in to possession of these notes and that they based at least some of their storyline around what was outlined within them. I also believe them when they say they used bits of the notes as plot threads in their prequels, although as far as I am concerned the prequels are nothing but glorified fan fiction.
    I believe that Duncan was being set up to play a major part in whatever endgame FH had in mind, but that does not necessarily mean he was to become an "ultimate KH", for example Gurney and Stilgar were both set up to play major parts without becoming superheroes and I feel that Duncan was always meant to be the audiences' connection and "way in" despite the vast distances of time between the novels.
    I also believe that Scytale's genetic samples were foreshadowing the possible revival of important characters such as Paul or Leto II as ghola's to play a part in the endgame, this is something which I think that BH and KJA took to blatant fanwank heights by including gholas of any and every major character they could think of and then giving generic happy endings to said characters.
    I also believe that KH intended to explore the threat of machines and themes of the Butlerian Jihad, however I don't think that this was intended to be a Terminator/Matrix style man vs. machine war. I think that the enhanced face dancers were going to be the big bad that the HM had been running from.

    So to summarize, in my mind I feel that the threads FH was setting up for Dune 7 which were outlined in his notes and incorporated by BH and KJA were: Enhanced Face Dancers likely with dangerous ai based weaponry, the possible ghola revival of Paul and/or Leto II most likely as a last ditch effort to avoid disaster and Duncan Idaho playing a major part in ending the conflict. I think that FH's ending would have been one that held a lot of hope for the future, but did not necessarily mean a happy ending for each and every character.
    I think that BH and KJA took these ideas from KH's notes and surrounded them in layers of fanwank and stuff that belongs in other franchise's and the presented them to us as the Dune 7 Duology.

    To me the situation is similar to another series that I love, The Lord of the Rings/Silmarllion. The Silmarillion was written by Christopher Tolkien using notes and drafts left by his father. However the Silmarillion is considered part of the canon largely because Christopher Tolkien then went on to publish 12 volumes of The History of Middle-Earth which included all of his father's original notes as well as detailed explanations as to why he included what he did and exactly why he felt he had to make certain changes. That sort of transparency is something I would love to see with Dune, If BH and KJA do indeed have FH's notes and outlines for Dune 7, then I would love to see them published.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2012 12:00

    Yeah that's pretty much the consensus here, without the swearing and birdnames.

    Toccs wrote: I will try to explain my reasoning as much as possible in order to avoid misunderstandings.


    Yep, we've had our share of misunderstandings.

    Toccs wrote: I welcome all responses whether agreeing or disagreeing, my only goal is to discuss Dune with fellow fans.


    Fine.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Toccs » 08 Feb 2012 12:13

    lotek wrote:Yeah that's pretty much the consensus here, without the swearing and birdnames.


    I didn't think I did swear . . . unless you mean"fanwank" which I assure you I meant only in the TV Tropes sense of the word.

    lotek wrote:Fine.
    Then maybe you'll want to Introduce Yourself! so your water can be claimed ?


    Well I thought that this post could serve as an introduction as I felt it sort of got to the crux of why I'm registering here as opposed to elsewhere to discuss Dune, but I'm happy to make a thread in the "introduce yourself" forum.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2012 12:18

    Toccs wrote:
    lotek wrote:Yeah that's pretty much the consensus here, without the swearing and birdnames.


    I didn't think I did swear . . . unless you mean"fanwank" which I assure you I meant only in the TV Tropes sense of the word.


    nah you misunderstood, I meant you were saying more or less what we say here, minus the swearing ^^

    (fanwank was pretty tame compared to what goes here)


    And it was a good introduction post don't worry, it's just that considering the local tendency to digression, it's good to start with a solid base by building it in the right place (but then again I only live here, I don't own the place, that'll be Freakzilla and he has rules but few)
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2012 12:21

    I thought Sheeana would be the new "hero"... with Duncan's help, of course.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2012 12:26

    Freakzilla wrote:I thought Sheeana would be the new "hero"... with Duncan's help, of course.


    and we all know what "help" means for Duncan and women ;)
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby D Pope » 08 Feb 2012 13:52

    lotek wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I thought Sheeana would be the new "hero"... with Duncan's help, of course.


    and we all know what "help" means for Duncan and women ;)

    I've always toyed with the idea that the 'merging Duncan' the hacks so completely misunderstood was going to be the conduit to the past that allows understanding of the future for some presient somebody- Duncan 'sharing' with Paul or Leto, who would be too far removed from anything to interpret prescience, to form something new.
    Combined with a pitch for some democratic ideas, Bam! Dune 7.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby lotek » 08 Feb 2012 13:57

    That's a pretty good concept in my opinion.
    Obviously it would require too much thinking to write, which explains the supadupa KH of all times man, of all times...
    sigh...
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Feb 2012 18:03

    Duncan Sharing, that's good.

    OK, Sheeana takes on the worm skin and becomes possessed by Leto II. Duncan Shares with her AND Miles Teg and gets his AND Leto II powers.

    Ultra-super-human to fight the IDF and their AI.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby D Pope » 08 Feb 2012 20:52

    Freakzilla wrote:Duncan Sharing, that's good.
    OK, Sheeana takes on the worm skin and becomes possessed by Leto II. Duncan Shares with her AND Miles Teg and gets his AND Leto II powers.
    Ultra-super-human to fight the IDF and their AI.

    I can't defend it, really, I was just wondering what it would be like to wake up one day in a strange place to find that yesterday was several millennia ago.
    Following that thought, I started thinking that it wouldn't help matters if I were prescient.

    IF there is an outline and IF it said something about Duncan and a merger, well, your guess is as good as mine;
    but I like the idea that Duncans new skills along with his version of Other Memory could help ghola Paul realize he isn't dreaming.

    In all honesty, it's a stretch for me to think that Duncan was nessesary in Heretics.
    I can't believe Frank intended to bring back Paul or anyone else except maybe the BT leaders.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Toccs » 08 Feb 2012 22:21

    D Pope wrote:In all honesty, it's a stretch for me to think that Duncan was nessesary in Heretics.


    Yeah I don't think that Duncan was ever meant to be the central character who saves the universe. To me Duncan always seemed like the normal guy who was constantly put in the middle of all this crazyiness and just sort of rolled with it.
    I agree with the idea that Sheeana was being built up as the major hero. If Duncan was to play an important part, I think that it would probably be by helping Sheeana understand her destiny by telling her about his firsthand memories of who her ancestors were and what they tried to do. Then possibly die "one last death for the Atreidies" to save Sheeana from some danger thus allowing her to embrace her destiny and do whatever had to be done.

    D Pope wrote:I can't believe Frank intended to bring back Paul or anyone else except maybe the BT leaders.


    Maybe bringing back a KH was something the Enhanced Face Dancers would be trying to do and something the heroes are trying to stop. To me the idea of the big bad thinking that Paul as the KH would be the key to their victory is something that fits in with the previous books.
    To me the fact that in the duology both sides raise a Paul ghola and think he is the key says that the basis for this idea was likely in FH's outline. However I believe that if a Paul ghola had been created by the Face Dancers, he would most likely have only been around for a chapter or two before he died possibly in a heroic sacrifice to try and bring them down.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby D Pope » 08 Feb 2012 23:39

    Toccs wrote:I agree with the idea that Sheeana was being built up as the major hero.

    I guess so, it just feels a little like a let down for me.
    Sure thing the BG were grooming her to be the next big it but it doesn't seem like them (BG) to be taking command first hand especially with one of their own!
    Sheanna was a bit of a rougue, surely she would rather run away than drop a dime on her sisters like Jessica.
    (Like at the end of chapterhouse.)

    The end of Chapterhouse shut down every last bit of what came before except for this 'small' group on the no-ship. This time capsule of pure BG, has everything needed to restart an original BG school. They are gone, no need to see them again any time soon. Meanwhile, Murbella's trying to get a few classes of HM pushed through the BG way before having to deal with any backlash about the HM being subverted... I'll bet the real #7 would've been close to another thousand years after Duncan slips the net.

    SandRider had a great post on this very subject (a little more focused on Daniel & Marty) and I cant find it.

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    viewtopic.php?f=21&t=532
    Last edited by D Pope on 09 Feb 2012 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby D Pope » 09 Feb 2012 00:03

    Norman & the Rider wrote:SR: Do you believe Frank had intentions of a "Dune7" ? Along the same lines, what do think of the claim of Brian Herbert to have found floppy disks containing the "complete" Dune7 outline in a safety deposit box years after Frank's death ? If there were notes, do you believe Brian and Kevin J. Anderson used them faithfully in their new "Dune" books ?

    NS: Maybe. Frank kept going as long as the big money kept rolling in. Knowing Frank's political philosophy, I once asked him how he could keep writing this royalist stuff. He told me he planned to end the series with a novel that would transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule. Never wrote it, of course. And Brian and Kevin certainly didn't from any 7 notes.

    :confusion-shrug:

    viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1112
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 09 Feb 2012 18:18

    D Pope wrote:I'll bet the real #7 would've been close to another thousand years after Duncan slips the net.


    I was just thinking that! Maybe more. I guess we'll never know.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby PoLlAckJacK » 29 Feb 2012 05:57

    It's just that considering the local tendency to digression, it's good to start with a solid base by building it in the right place. the hacks so completely misunderstood was going to be the conduit to the past that allows understanding of the future for some presient somebody..
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby Sardaukar Capt » 05 Mar 2012 13:18

    I'm not convinced at all that the Hacks Twain used anything of Frank's for Dune 7. It wasn't Frank's style to have 2 books of a trilogy not hint at the return of machines (in Heretics & Chapterhouse ) and suddenly spring it in the final chapter. All his other books had a wonderful layered subtext to it. This whole universe underneath and a history to that universe while only hinted at usually there are still the hints and nuggets that let you complete the history in your mind. There is ZERO to me in HERETICS of CHAPTERHOUSE that even remotely makes me think the Enemy in the scattering are machines.

    I haven't read the Hacks' "Dune 7" but know enough about it to know that nothing will ever convince me, short of seeing REAL FH notes and an outline from D7 that confirms their version, that what they wrote in Cunters & Sandturds even remotely resembles what Frank was planning.

    The idiots needed an entire trilogy (Legends) to set the stage for Cunters & Sandturds and yet supposedly Frank was going to spring all this shit in his real Dune 7 without hinting at any of the backstory? Give me a break.
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    Re: My thoughts on Dune 7 as intended vs. as presented

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 05 Mar 2012 20:05

    Sardaukar Capt wrote:I'm not convinced at all that the Hacks Twain used anything of Frank's for Dune 7. It wasn't Frank's style to have 2 books of a trilogy not hint at the return of machines (in Heretics & Chapterhouse ) and suddenly spring it in the final chapter. All his other books had a wonderful layered subtext to it. This whole universe underneath and a history to that universe while only hinted at usually there are still the hints and nuggets that let you complete the history in your mind. There is ZERO to me in HERETICS of CHAPTERHOUSE that even remotely makes me think the Enemy in the scattering are machines.

    I haven't read the Hacks' "Dune 7" but know enough about it to know that nothing will ever convince me, short of seeing REAL FH notes and an outline from D7 that confirms their version, that what they wrote in Cunters & Sandturds even remotely resembles what Frank was planning.

    The idiots needed an entire trilogy (Legends) to set the stage for Cunters & Sandturds and yet supposedly Frank was going to spring all this shit in his real Dune 7 without hinting at any of the backstory? Give me a break.


    Yeah, I think that you'd have to be a real dumb-ass to think that you can take anything from McDune- except bad memories! McDune is "tainted," to say the least, and I do not like it, and I do not believe in it. Frank Herbert's Dune. All else is fan fiction. Some of it is alright, I'm sure, and some of it (McDune) must surely be horrible. Horrible. Anyway, until "the notes" are released, I'll use my imagination.
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