The Duncans

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D Pope
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2010 17:32

I'm still enthused, lets see if we can change some minds!

sorry, I was doing to much to think clearly- I did delete it.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby SandChigger » 08 Jul 2010 19:14

D Pope wrote:It's not often you hear an OH suggest that FH made a mistake.

Not at all true. ;)

He was crap at math, for example. Or didn't even bother trying to make the math in the books work. (He couldn't even handle simple arithmetic, like counting: first Farok has one arm and then next thing you know, he has two! :lol: )

And in real life he made a continuing series of mistakes. First, he didn't pull it out that night in late September '46. Then he didn't disown the kid when he started getting stroppy and drinking all the time. Finally, he didn't stipulate that his notes and materials be burned in his will. :twisted:

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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2010 19:18

...that night in '46...

What would the world have been like. :lol:
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2010 19:25

We need a decision on this, do we discuss GEoDs Duncans origin here or in ch.6?

edit; origin of the Duncan in GEoD.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Jul 2010 19:39

Start a new thread with a Poll.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby SadisticCynic » 08 Jul 2010 20:21

There is a quote about the Mentat thing that is relevant to the discussion in God Emperor chapter 6 but it's from Chapterhouse: Dune, so I'll post it here and it can be moved if necessary:

Chapterhouse: Dune wrote:His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat
several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one
incarnation.


Despite the Tyrant not allowing Mentats he did allow Duncan to be one at some points and also recall that he allowed it to survive underground within the Bene Gesserit.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby SandRider » 08 Jul 2010 22:30

I guess I don't get the issue here -

Hayt was the re-animated corpse of Duncan Idaho;
any "cells" used for the subsequent reproduction of the Duncans
came from this source ....
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Re: The Duncans

Postby SandChigger » 08 Jul 2010 23:56

Aye, but when CAME they thence, Dear Hoarbeard?

Before the corpse was repaired and reanimated?

Or after it was repaired and reanimated and the ghola trained as a Mentat (for twelve years?)? ;)

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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 00:10

SadisticCynic wrote:There is a quote about the Mentat thing that is relevant to the discussion in God Emperor chapter 6 but it's from Chapterhouse: Dune, so I'll post it here and it can be moved if necessary:

Chapterhouse: Dune wrote:His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat
several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one
incarnation.


Despite the Tyrant not allowing Mentats he did allow Duncan to be one at some points and also recall that he allowed it to survive underground within the Bene Gesserit.


Well, that's a good quote about a Duncan becoming a mentat but doesn't add to how a clone of Hayt could un-become a mentat (other than FH forgetting). Not sure if that was your intention or if you were just adding random trivia about Duncans being mentats.

SandRider wrote:I guess I don't get the issue here -

Hayt was the re-animated corpse of Duncan Idaho;
any "cells" used for the subsequent reproduction of the Duncans
came from this source ....


Some people are saying that the cells used for later Duncans came from before he was reanimated, and thus are clones of Duncan, not Hayt - because, as discussed above, in GEoD Duncan is not a mentat, whereas Hayt was.

So either FH messed up and should have made him a mentat, or he f-d up orders of magnitude worse and meant for him to be a clone of Duncan (pre-Hayt) but then gave him memories from Hayt's time.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby SandChigger » 09 Jul 2010 00:29

Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:

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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 00:34

Thing wrote:Some people are saying that the cells used for later Duncans came from before he was reanimated, and thus are clones of Duncan, not Hayt - because, as discussed above, in GEoD Duncan is not a mentat, whereas Hayt was.

So either FH messed up and should have made him a mentat, or he f-d up orders of magnitude worse and meant for him to be a clone of Duncan (pre-Hayt) but then gave him memories from Hayt's time.



Therein lies the heart of the dispute. I'm with you, the rest doesn't make sense.

Sandchigger, thou art villan. :P
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 00:53

SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:


This actually did cross my mind in all seriousness. We know this book was written in the "hey, look how much they're paying me for this!" period, so it's possible that he decided to mess with people.

BUT - FH rewarded careful readers, he didn't punish them. Finding this discrepancy is no reward, just makes readers angry, knocks them out of their suspension of disbelief etc. It has no positive effect. (Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 01:08

The third possibility could be very real, i've wondered if He had somthing in mind this early that would explain how the last Duncan did his stuff.

meanwhile... Holy Shit! Hayt was a reanimated corpse??! Rider, Chigger, lay it on me. Here's a new thing I hadn't expected! Please explain.

:shock: :o :x :oops: :shock: :o
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 01:20

D Pope wrote:The third possibility could be very real, i've wondered if He had somthing in mind this early that would explain how the last Duncan did his stuff.

meanwhile... Holy Shit! Hayt was a reanimated corpse??! Rider, Chigger, lay it on me. Here's a new thing I hadn't expected! Please explain.

:shock: :o :x :oops: :shock: :o


Re-read Dune Messiah sometime soon is my recomendation. Hayt is not grown from childhood (only 12 years have passed remember, and he is full grown and adult in DM), he is the exact corpse of Duncan Idaho ressurected. "Ghola" originally meant a corpse brought back to life in DM, and was later expanded on to include clones from both dead and living flesh. Whether FH meant them to include clones the whole time or whether he expanded on the idea isn't known to me.

By the way, about the name of the tanks they are grown in. "Axolotl" is a typeof salamander (not a feeesh... inside joke with me and Chig, sorry!) that is able to regenerate many of it's body parts. I think that's a good clue which suggests that FH originally intended these tanks and their gholas to be rebuilding machines/rebuilt people.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 01:35

That makes me feel idiotic. Twelve years...
I guess I simply superimposed every clone TV show growth accelerator bull if it ever even occured to me. So, for having displayed all the mental depth of an inverted saucer, let me know when I may remove my dunce cap... And thanks, I love this place!

You're right, it's been too long. DM is now next on the list.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 01:38

It happens - when I first joined the boards I thought that whole scene where Duncan dies was off-screen... then when I next re-read Dune I found it. I don't even think I forgot it, I think I missed that ENTIRE chapter somehow... very weird.

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Re: The Duncans

Postby Serkanner » 09 Jul 2010 03:25

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:


(Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )


This is exactly what happened to Duncun in Chapterhouse when his memories of all his previous bodies return ... included are memories from bodies of which no cells had been saved.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 12:40

Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:


(Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )


This is exactly what happened to Duncun in Chapterhouse when his memories of all his previous bodies return ... included are memories from bodies of which no cells had been saved.


That's what I was referring to, the slight possibility that FH introduced the discrepancy in order to prep people for that bit of weirdness.

BUT, I don't think this is the case, Leto II would have mentioned at some point how curious it was that Duncan had memories from Hayt's tim without being a clone of Hayt. He would have been all over something like that.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 12:55

Continued from ch.6


merkin muffley wrote:There would be no need for those abilities to be awakened, because he would have memories of being a mentat. Paul had to have them awakened because he A: didn't know he had been trained as one until someone pointed it out, and B: at that time he still needed more training to become one, remember he is asked whether or not he wants to pursue that path and he says yes.


I'm misunderstanding, I thought Paul had gotten some training- wanted more- then left it for the KH thing.( A ghola from Hayt would already have been through all that.) Do you mean the early training 'awakened' his potential as a mentat?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 13:03

from ch.6

merkin muffley wrote:Word up. I knew his swordmaster abilities and training were relevant.


I just meant it as an example, parallel to mentat. I should think that being a mentat would help with the integration of two lifetimes of memories, maybe swordmater abilities would help too.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 13:06

D Pope wrote:Continued from ch.6


merkin muffley wrote:There would be no need for those abilities to be awakened, because he would have memories of being a mentat. Paul had to have them awakened because he A: didn't know he had been trained as one until someone pointed it out, and B: at that time he still needed more training to become one, remember he is asked whether or not he wants to pursue that path and he says yes.


I'm misunderstanding, I thought Paul had gotten some training- wanted more- then left it for the KH thing.( A ghola from Hayt would already have been through all that.) Do you mean the early training 'awakened' his potential as a mentat?


First off, that's actually a quote of my post, not Merkin's! Not sure how that happened...

Paul was both a mentat and the KH, there's not much mention of where he got his further training after going into the desert, but I imagine it came from his mother.

Once a mentat, any ghola or clone of that person would also be a mentat once he/she got their memories restored (assuming that the cells were taken from a point after which the person was indeed fully a mentat - as would be the case with this arguement about him being Hayt).
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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 13:14

:oops:

Well for fucks sake! I just can't help doing stupid things here lately, i'm sorry- & I don't JUST mean it as an apology. I'm a sorry individual.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 13:19

We're mostly in agreement then, I didn't know Muad'dib was a mentat.

How do you feel about the earlier suggestion of a poll?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 13:27

I agree with it, I will start a new thread right now.
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Re: The Duncans

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jul 2010 13:31

D Pope wrote:from ch.6

merkin muffley wrote:Word up. I knew his swordmaster abilities and training were relevant.


I just meant it as an example, parallel to mentat. I should think that being a mentat would help with the integration of two lifetimes of memories, maybe swordmater abilities would help too.


What I was thinking of was the fact that if Duncan's swordmaster abilities carried over from Duncan to Hayt, just like his flying style carried over, then mentat capabilities would also carry over from Hayt to subsequent Duncans.

Duncans from Hayt will definitely have the potential to be mentats. My question was whether or not this potential had to be developed through training, like Paul's were, for a new Duncan to actually become a mentat.

If a new Duncan, from Hayt, would quickly be a swordmaster because his training and experience have been unlocked, then he would also be a mentat without the training Paul needed.
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