Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

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Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby shishi » 04 Sep 2010 17:53

I think that the Tleilaxu initiated these two projects with two different but related goals in mind.
The conflict that might have taken place after Chapterhouse and been called Kralizec, may have been a symbolic struggle of man vs. machine, or more importantly human nature vs. mechanistic nature, as exemplified by the refinement of these two projects.
The conflict would be between gholas and a pervasive network of face dancers alone, and no machines or robots in the traditional sense would be involved.

The New Face Dancers described in Heretics that are able to copy any person simply my touching another, may have been essentially machines, more specifically mechanistic creatures which are able to alter their appearance and copy anything, including themselves. A typical creature arising from humans would not be able to read what is in a person's mind just by touching them, these New Face Dancers have sensors or vibrational resonators that are able to tell the shape of a human mind, and be able to reform and copy it, but not aware of what is the meaning of what they are copying.

Also, I believe the face dancers would have tried to create a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert) or perhaps a face dancer of Paul Atreides, in their mechanical efforts to copy the past, by producing what they believed to be an answer to present problems by copying the past. It is also clever that since Paul Atreides was the answer to the problems during the original Dune crisis, only because he was unexpected, yet they think they can solve their problems by copying the unexpectedness, when in fact it is just a copy and is so not unexpected, and can't be the answer they want. I am sure Frank wanted to put this point in the book, by making some of the characters believe the answer to problems was simply to copy great people of whom regular humans can't seem to copy but face dancers are capable of doing. However, how the face dancers would get to make a copy of Paul I am not sure. Perhaps they would find some way to steal cells from the no-ship, as the face-dancers seem familiar with inter-dimensional networks and they would probably want to find some way to reproduce Paul. Perhaps the No-ship sisterhood would succeed in raising a Paul ghola, but later a face dancer either overtly or secretly kills him and copies his appearance.

I think FH planned to run wild with gholas in the next Dune book, possibly exploring what happens when two awakened gholas exist at the same time, using two unawakened gholas together to reawake each other through themselves, and would have probably revealed how gholas are able to see into their past incarnations.
The awakening of Duncan done by Miles Teg in Heretics was probably a clever fake climax written by FH, as it was not really necessary. Once Duncan got into a situation like bonding with Murbella, he would have learned of all his past experiences, including the original Duncan that helped young Paul, and the awakening that Teg went to great pains to undertake was entirely unnecessary.

I also think that FH wanted to have an idea of a network, and this network idea probably provides some answers as to how people can be aware of people in the past, or previous incarnations as in the case of gholas.
Duncan was truly another Kwisatz Haderach because he would be the first person to understand how to use this network, but his control over it would trouble him greatly. Having the no-ship in another universe will probably force them to find out how this network may connect the "multiverse", which is mulled over at one point in Chapterhouse. At times they may be even to see what is going on in the seemingly close off universe of Dune, they would be able to hide themselves but also capable of observing everywhere.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby shishi » 04 Sep 2010 18:07

There also appears to be a theme in the later books of trying to look into the past to solve problems, whereas in the earlier books people try to look into the future. The resolving of these issues probably is some type of timeless concept, which the network may play a part in producing.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Sep 2010 05:10

Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."

~CoD
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 06:06

shishi wrote:I think that the Tleilaxu initiated these two projects with two different but related goals in mind.
The conflict that might have taken place after Chapterhouse and been called Kralizec, may have been a symbolic struggle of man vs. machine, or more importantly human nature vs. mechanistic nature, as exemplified by the refinement of these two projects.
The conflict would be between gholas and a pervasive network of face dancers alone, and no machines or robots in the traditional sense would be involved.

The New Face Dancers described in Heretics that are able to copy any person simply my touching another, may have been essentially machines, more specifically mechanistic creatures which are able to alter their appearance and copy anything, including themselves. A typical creature arising from humans would not be able to read what is in a person's mind just by touching them, these New Face Dancers have sensors or vibrational resonators that are able to tell the shape of a human mind, and be able to reform and copy it, but not aware of what is the meaning of what they are copying.

What about Sharing? Even though RMs are not your average human, they still are human and function within human limitations.
How do you know how FD copy personas? The old FD model could still copy part of a mind, the NFD were perfect nerve simpatico copies, to the point they believed they were that person(cf high priest Tuek)
So even if they don't "understand" it, by becoming that person and acting so that no one knows isn't that the same thing in the end?


Also, I believe the face dancers would have tried to create a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert)NO IT DOESN'T! And no they wouldn't... Paolo is mcdune bulshit! or perhaps a face dancer of Paul Atreides, in their mechanical efforts to copy the past, by producing what they believed to be an answer to present problems by copying the past. It is also clever that since Paul Atreides was the answer to the problems during the original Dune crisis, which he kinda precipitated by his actions... only because he was unexpected, yet they think they can solve their problems by copying the unexpectedness, when in fact it is just a copy and is so not unexpected, and can't be the answer they want. I am sure Frank wanted to put this point in the book, by making some of the characters believe the answer to problems was simply to copy great people(no that was the hacks' answer) of whom regular humans can't seem to copy but face dancers are capable of doing Huh?. However, how the face dancers would get to make a copy of Paul I am not sure. Perhaps they would find some way to steal cells from the no-ship(what happened to the magic touch?) , as the face-dancers seem familiar with inter-dimensional networks(they don't teleport though, this is not star trek) and they would probably want to find some way to reproduce Paul. Perhaps the No-ship sisterhood would succeed in raising a Paul ghola, but later a face dancer either overtly or secretly kills him and copies his appearance.
Have you been reading nudune stuff lately?
I think FH planned to run wild with gholas in the next Dune book,(by ending his series with the words "Gholas, he's welcome to them..." possibly exploring what happens when two awakened gholas exist at the same time,(now that I've always wondered about) using two unawakened gholas together to reawake each other through themselves, (That's sick :))and would have probably revealed how gholas are able to see into their past incarnations.
The awakening of Duncan done by Miles Teg in Heretics was probably a clever fake climax written by FH, as it was not really necessary.You border on heresy mate ;) It was necessary to create the mirror situation of Duncan awakening young Teg and all the moral questions raised by that. Once Duncan got into a situation like bonding with Murbella, he would have learned of all his past experiences, including the original Duncan that helped young Paul, and the awakening that Teg went to great pains to undertake was entirely unnecessary. Only with that foreknowledge though.

I also think that FH wanted to have an idea of a network, and this network idea probably provides some answers as to how people can be aware of people in the past, or previous incarnations as in the case of gholas.
Duncan was truly another Kwisatz Haderach Now that is heresy, Duncan is NOT a KH or a supadupahero, if it comes to that the closest would be Teg, bt he doesn't have full prescience, only a short term vision of potential danger. because he would be the first person to understand how to use this network, but his control over it would trouble him greatly. Wot? No one but Daniel and Marty uses the tachyon net as it is called. Having the no-ship in another universe will probably force them to find out how this network may connect the "multiverse", which is mulled over at one point in Chapterhouse. When? At times they may be even to see what is going on in the seemingly close off universe of Dune, they would be able to hide themselves but also capable of observing everywhere. Now you lost me...
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby merkin muffley » 05 Sep 2010 07:13

shishi wrote: a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert)


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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 07:35

now I see there's no point, either it's a boring troll or a wingnut, or both...

Chig is that you?
You can stop now, I'm scared and it's not funny anymore ;)

Why is it that the smart ones agree with us and the others well... ?

Do you think that means that as soon as you're able to grasp the concepts in Dune without turning them into some mystical mumbo jumbo(at best)then the only solution is to become an OH?

Not saying this in an elitist way, as far as I am concerned Dune is Frank's, I'm only there for the ride(and what a ride!).

Maybe that Frank did put some kind of revelation in the form of teaching(like the socratic form of teaching, maieutics)
Wether he put a straight forward hidden message or just taught us to learn is arguable, though I'd go for the second myself.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby merkin muffley » 05 Sep 2010 10:07

So many conclusions here that are just not Frank Herbert's ideas, and often directly conflicting. I'd like to hear about how Eyes Wide Shut and Kubrick relate to all of this, shishi. And, do you think the Masons killed Kubrick? I kind of wanted to kill him after that cheesy orgy scene. Or at least slap him and ask him what his major malfunction is.

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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby SandRider » 05 Sep 2010 12:22

baseless opinion: I think FH planned to run wild with gholas in the next Dune book ...
clever rebuttal, w/ quotation: (by ending his series with the words "Gholas, he's welcome to them..." )



that was very good, lotek; I'd almost say elegant ...


lotek get cookie:
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 12:31

why thank you!
I try in my modest way to integrate the lessons from Frank's books (and some others) into my way of thinking :)

So that cookie is very welcome!

Plus I really don't like approximative reasoning(that's typical of the wingnuts to jump to conclusions), if you can't think it don't type it that's whattasay!

And putting mcdune and Dune on the same level?

Heresy if there ever was one!
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby shishi » 05 Sep 2010 16:51

I think that Frank Herbert did not necessarily want his books to be looked at one way, and always wanted to have the door open to interpretation.
He seemed to want to find ways to shock his readers, with a new development, or at least try to stimulate their imagination as much as possible with the clues he gives.
The way that things have always worked before, as is assumed, may not be true. Instead, the way things were thought to work may not apply in all circumstances, and a new explanation that is very different is developed that will explain more, but even this explanation could not be entirely accurate.

I have fascination with both Herbert and Kubrick because they both had very different ideas than traditional writers/directors and were kind of reclusive, Herbert not as much but his philosophies and knowledge were very unique, and he must have extensively researched in all kinds of hard to find places when writing his books, similar to Kubrick. Also their last works incorporate sexual themes, and were not necessary entirely finished, and what they may have intended with these works is mysterious, but they are filled with symbols and clues which they obviously thought hard about.

Eyes Wide Shut is one of the most mysterious films ever made, and for some reason very overlooked. Unfortunately very few people seem to discuss in it literature, what you find in published books is often blurb-ish in nature, and offers shallow interpretations of the plot, or concentrates on the fidelity issue. It is very difficult at times to get anyone to discuss the film seriously elsewhere, as they are either unwavering conspiricy theorists, or only focus on the surface meaning of the plot or the empty erotic nature of the film that disappointed them.

The film is also hard to discuss because it is so visual, but in fact this makes it a good film because film should be about images.
Sexually-themed films are forced by their nature to concentrate on interpreting things visually.

Eyes Wide Shut had the longest shooting schedule of any film ever made, a year and a half, and everyone involved with the filming had to sign very strict agreements of confidentiality, which is typical with Kubrick, but this film seemed to be particularly airtight.

Kubrick is fascinating because by the end of his career he could basically make his film however he wanted, and the studio would release his film. He is a hybrid avant garde/mainstream film director, but I think eventually became a type of pure art house film director, releasing his films through mainstream channels. When he was making Eyes Wide Shut I think there was no pressure on Kubrick to bend to anyone except the pressure to eventually finish it.

As far as conspiracy theories go as to if Kubrick was espousing his secret knowledge of cults, being Masonic or what else, I think their can be two ways of looking at it.

Kubrick did have inner knowledge or was involved with cults, and this film was his attempt to show the public through a mainstream Hollywood movie starring two very popular actors, with the perceived premise of a highly sexual/erotic tour de force, what goes on behind closed doors, or at least show that there are people behind closed doors. He entitles the movie Eyes Wide Shut, a phrase that has a curious resonance to it, and is never actually spoken in the film.

Or, Kubrick when making the film, as he usually does, extensively researches every aspect of it, and finds all types of public knowledge or myths of cults, and incorporates them into the movie. He even subtly hides references though they may not actually be meant to suggest that they are a part of our reality, and also decides to shoot at certain set locations that are related to myths about cults.

The second option appears more likely, but it is also the easiest one to tackle.
What is suspicious, is that almost all of Kubrick's movies, especially from Lolita and later on, are done in a very allegorical manner full of symbols, and are also meant to be open to interpretation to the viewer. This is a very Masonic model of thinking. Also, Kubrick's movies are often shot in very geometrically precise manners.

I really do not know what to believe, but I think why it is so interesting, is because there is so much thought behind the film, and so much meaning to it, even if it is hard to find ways to explain it.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby SandRider » 05 Sep 2010 17:38

you ain't reading none of the stuff in betwixt yer own posts, are ya, Son ?
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 17:51

shishi wrote:I think that Frank Herbert did not necessarily want his books to be looked at one way, and always wanted to have the door open to interpretation.
He seemed to want to find ways to shock his readers, with a new development, or at least try to stimulate their imagination as much as possible with the clues he gives.

He still gave some sort of direction, especially concerning what he did not want his readers to embark on. That's why I like SF so much, because even if it's far fetched it has if not rules at least guidelines. Without those, what you have is perfectly demonstrated in the "works" of the KJ(A)B. Something that doesn't bring you noble purpose...

The way that things have always worked before, as is assumed, may not be true. Instead, the way things were thought to work may not apply in all circumstances, and a new explanation that is very different is developed that will explain more, but even this explanation could not be entirely accurate.

Irony strikes again huh?

I have fascination with both Herbert and Kubrick because they both had very different ideas than traditional writers/directors and were kind of reclusive, Herbert not as much but his philosophies and knowledge were very unique, and he must have extensively researched in all kinds of hard to find places when writing his books, similar to Kubrick. Also their last works incorporate sexual themes, and were not necessary entirely finished, and what they may have intended with these works is mysterious, but they are filled with symbols and clues which they obviously thought hard about.

Eyes Wide Shut is one of the most mysterious films ever made, and for some reason very overlooked.

I haven't seen it ànd quite frankly I am not too interested by the themes apparently explored.

Unfortunately very few people seem to discuss in it literature, what you find in published books is often blurb-ish in nature, and offers shallow interpretations of the plot, or concentrates on the fidelity issue. It is very difficult at times to get anyone to discuss the film seriously elsewhere, as they are either unwavering conspiricy theorists, or only focus on the surface meaning of the plot or the empty erotic nature of the film that disappointed them.

The film is also hard to discuss because it is so visual, but in fact this makes it a good film because film should be about images.
Sexually-themed films are forced by their nature to concentrate on interpreting things visually.

Eyes Wide Shut had the longest shooting schedule of any film ever made, a year and a half, and everyone involved with the filming had to sign very strict agreements of confidentiality, which is typical with Kubrick, but this film seemed to be particularly airtight.

Kubrick is fascinating because by the end of his career he could basically make his film however he wanted, and the studio would release his film. He is a hybrid avant garde/mainstream film director, but I think eventually became a type of pure art house film director, releasing his films through mainstream channels. When he was making Eyes Wide Shut I think there was no pressure on Kubrick to bend to anyone except the pressure to eventually finish it.

As far as conspiracy theories go as to if Kubrick was espousing his secret knowledge of cults, being Masonic or what else, I think their can be two ways of looking at it.

Kubrick did have inner knowledge or was involved with cults, and this film was his attempt to show the public through a mainstream Hollywood movie starring two very popular actors, with the perceived premise of a highly sexual/erotic tour de force, what goes on behind closed doors, or at least show that there are people behind closed doors. He entitles the movie Eyes Wide Shut, a phrase that has a curious resonance to it, and is never actually spoken in the film.

Or, Kubrick when making the film, as he usually does, extensively researches every aspect of it, and finds all types of public knowledge or myths of cults, and incorporates them into the movie. He even subtly hides references though they may not actually be meant to suggest that they are a part of our reality, and also decides to shoot at certain set locations that are related to myths about cults.

The second option appears more likely, but it is also the easiest one to tackle.
What is suspicious, is that almost all of Kubrick's movies, especially from Lolita and later on, are done in a very allegorical manner full of symbols, and are also meant to be open to interpretation to the viewer. This is a very Masonic model of thinking. Also, Kubrick's movies are often shot in very geometrically precise manners.

I really do not know what to believe, but I think why it is so interesting, is because there is so much thought behind the film, and so much meaning to it, even if it is hard to find ways to explain it.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 17:55

SandRider wrote:you ain't reading none of the stuff in betwixt yer own posts, are ya, Son ?


no I don't think he is...
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby shishi » 05 Sep 2010 18:09

Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."

~CoD



That quote does not necessary mean that Kralizec took place soon after Leto II died and before the worms came back. Kralizec could take place any time after Leto II died.
I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby SadisticCynic » 05 Sep 2010 18:43

shishi wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."

~CoD



That quote does not necessary mean that Kralizec took place soon after Leto II died and before the worms came back. Kralizec could take place any time after Leto II died.
I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.


It does not make logical sense.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years..."

This says there will be a scarcity of spice during Leto's reign due to the lack of sandworms.

"But there'll be abundance after Kralizec"

This implies that spice will not be (as) scarce once Kralizec has ended.

"The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand"

This implies that Leto must die before the worms return. The worms are the source of spice (recall that when Ghanima says this, the Bene Tleilax have not discovered how to replicate melange).

It therefore follows that Kralizec must have occurred between Leto's death and the return of the worms, as Freak claimed.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2010 19:02

SadisticCynic wrote:
shishi wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."

~CoD



That quote does not necessary mean that Kralizec took place soon after Leto II died and before the worms came back. Kralizec could take place any time after Leto II died.
I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.


It does not make logical sense.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years..."

This says there will be a scarcity of spice during Leto's reign due to the lack of sandworms.

"But there'll be abundance after Kralizec"

This implies that spice will not be (as) scarce once Kralizec has ended.

"The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand"

This implies that Leto must die before the worms return. The worms are the source of spice (recall that when Ghanima says this, the Bene Tleilax have not discovered how to replicate melange).

It therefore follows that Kralizec must have occurred between Leto's death and the return of the worms, as Freak claimed.


I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.


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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby shishi » 05 Sep 2010 19:29

It depends how you look at the passage. Maybe if I could find a full reading of its context it would be easier to determine what is probably implied.
Kralizec may not be the struggling immediately after Leto's death due to spice shortage.
All this passage says is that once Kralizec is over, which we assume will happen some time in the future, it will be capable for spice to exist in plenty.
But this does not preclude spice coming back before Kralizec is over.
All that needs to enable spice to exist again is Leto's death as a worm.
So, once Leto returns to the sands, Kralizec will have an open-ended time frame to occur in from this point on.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Sep 2010 20:06

The full context is Ghanima telling Farad'n what's going to happen.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby Nekhrun » 05 Sep 2010 21:18

I just pissed myself. Sorry shishi
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby merkin muffley » 06 Sep 2010 05:56

I feel slightly responsible for casting the Eyes Wide Shut bait. It should be discussed in another thread. Although...

shishi wrote:The film is also hard to discuss because it is so visual, but in fact this makes it a good film because film should be about images.


...maybe not, because I don't know if I can handle insight like that.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby D Pope » 06 Sep 2010 11:24

:lol:
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby SandChigger » 07 Sep 2010 17:38

shishi wrote:Also, I believe the face dancers would have tried to create a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert) or perhaps a face dancer of Paul Atreides, in their mechanical efforts to copy the past, by producing what they believed to be an answer to present problems by copying the past.

STFU & GTFO. :roll:
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Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby tenfingersofdoom » 28 May 2013 22:40

Did he GTFO?

Good.

back to face dancers mimicing machines.

my current rereading of Heretics brings me to believe that New face dancers, Marty and Daniel, Other memory, tleilaxu and duncan serial reincarnations and the net were all written to warn us of the internet. Bit of an Aside to shishi's fluffing of eyes wide shut and the new books, sorry. I don't want to get into the evils of the public internet, but the networking of all military systems has led to the possibility of getting a combat medal by being nothing more than a chair polisher. Life has become a much more disposable commodity. having everyone "linked" together either through marty and daniels net or genetic manipulation has cheapened existence. Duncan hated leto for taking the "magic" away from life in his serial reincarnations. Now with autonomy being built into military drones all that is needed is supervision (albeit from 5,000 miles away) Like new face dancers.
Kevin J. Anderson is so stupid he thinks he invented The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen since he wrote the movie tie-in.

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Nameless Swordsman
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Joined: 09 Apr 2013 20:25
Location: Currently, the home sietch of the Jacurutu

Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby Nameless Swordsman » 31 May 2013 18:03

Shishi's promoting of ideas from the NuDune books is indeed sickening. :|


Edit: I never got around to reading how Duncan is supposedly the Great and Final Kwisatz Hadercach - and that he merged with a Cymek or something, similar to the way Leto II had merged with Sandtrout.

Duncan as the Kwisatz Haderach. :roll:
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu

My fellow members of the Jacurutu; of this Sietch - let Water be a bond between us.
-Nameless Swordsman

tenfingersofdoom
Posts: 65
Joined: 03 Jun 2010 22:08

Re: Gholas to mimic humans, Face Dancers to mimic machines

Postby tenfingersofdoom » 31 May 2013 19:17

Then you dont know about the suuuuuper keeeeewl battle around the lava fountain? you missed out :wink:
Kevin J. Anderson is so stupid he thinks he invented The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen since he wrote the movie tie-in.


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