Can Face Dancers become Masters?

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hannabaal
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Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby hannabaal » 07 Sep 2012 16:26

of course they can't. can they? i noticed that Scytale, the face dancer in Dune Messiah, becomes a master in Chapterhouse.

possibilities:

1. it's two different characters.
there are no other characters with the same name except Leto.
FH always differentiates between Leto I and Leto II, even though they have the same name.

2. it's the same character.
how is that possible? many passages point to the distinction between face dancers and masters, and nothing in the
books says that it can happen, and no explanation is given as to how Scytale changes from face dancer to master.
Paul kills Scytale in Dune Messiah, but the BT cloning allows it to be the same character. is it?

3. it's an oversight.
how dare i even think such a thing. i haven't found any others. not that i look for them. this just sticks out.

4. it's something else.
i'm all ears.
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Serkanner
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Serkanner » 07 Sep 2012 16:34

Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

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hannabaal
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby hannabaal » 07 Sep 2012 16:44

Serkanner wrote:Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


sounds reasonable to me, but it isn't in the books anywhere, as you mentioned. i would say that is what happened as well, unless someone has a quote or two that i have missed to explain it some other way. at this point i'm more interested in 'what is' than i am in 'what if', although it does raise the question 'were all masters at one time face dancers?'
Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda

We got to protect our phony baloney jobs, gentlemen!
Mel Brooks as the governor in Blazing Saddles

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hannabaal
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby hannabaal » 07 Sep 2012 16:52

well, crap, i didn't see the other string about this when i looked thru the first time. i hope you moderators can dump this. sorry.
Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda

We got to protect our phony baloney jobs, gentlemen!
Mel Brooks as the governor in Blazing Saddles

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Serkanner
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Serkanner » 08 Sep 2012 08:13

hannabaal wrote:
Serkanner wrote:Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


sounds reasonable to me, but it isn't in the books anywhere, as you mentioned. i would say that is what happened as well, unless someone has a quote or two that i have missed to explain it some other way. at this point i'm more interested in 'what is' than i am in 'what if', although it does raise the question 'were all masters at one time face dancers?'


Somewhere in Heretics Waff mentions that this Scytale met Muad'Dib in person.

here it is:
"Every one of them here had been wakened time
after time in ghola flesh. There was a fleshly continuity in this Council that
no other people had ever achieved. Mirlat himself had seen the Prophet with his
own eyes. Scytale had spoken to Muad'dib! Learning how the flesh could be
renewed and the memories restored, they had condensed this power into a single
government whose potency was confined lest it be demanded everywhere. Only the
witches had a similar storehouse of experience upon which to draw and they moved
with fearful caution, terrified that they might produce another Kwisatz
Haderach!"
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2012 08:32

A the time of the original Scytale, ghola memory restoration had not been achieved. He was the only Tleilaxu we knew, besides Bijaz.

The Bene Tleilax created sligs, chairdogs, gholas, face dancers, twisted mentats... it is not inconceivable that they could reward Scytale for his work restoring a ghola's memory for the first time by cloning him and making him a master instead of a face dancer.

I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Serkanner » 08 Sep 2012 11:15

Freakzilla wrote:I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.


I never thought of this. Interesting idea.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby ULFsurfer » 09 Sep 2012 08:51

Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.


I never thought of this. Interesting idea.


I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2012 21:48

ULFsurfer wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.


I never thought of this. Interesting idea.


I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..


Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

Who the fuck am I?
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Serkanner » 10 Sep 2012 06:43

Freakzilla wrote:
ULFsurfer wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.


I never thought of this. Interesting idea.


I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..


Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

Who the fuck am I?


correct:
"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts -- all of them. It needs only the right trigger."
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby ULFsurfer » 10 Sep 2012 07:42

Freakzilla wrote:
ULFsurfer wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.


I never thought of this. Interesting idea.


I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..


Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???


Yeah you're right that was their plan. He also mentioned that he had been grown in the same tank as Hayt so I guess that makes sense. But could they be 100% sure it would work?
I just had the notion of them both being tools/toys or whatever you want to call it because Bijaz kept referring to "our masters Tleilaxu" in that chapter when he and Hayt had a long chat. Or maybe I just misunderstand what "master" means here.

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You are lord Ming!

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Sep 2012 08:41

I don't remember writing that, must have been sober.
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lotek
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby lotek » 10 Sep 2012 10:41

Don't do it again, it's scary.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby ULFsurfer » 10 Sep 2012 18:02

You know Dune like the back of your hand, even when you're sober. That's pretty impressive. :)

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Sep 2012 19:46

ULFsurfer wrote:You know Dune like the back of your hand, even when you're sober. That's pretty impressive. :)


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hannabaal
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby hannabaal » 11 Sep 2012 12:46

i'm convinced by all. it's the same Scytale and he became a master.
anecdotally, Daniel and Marty were face dancers,
and it would appear that they are masters of themselves.
time to post another question.
thanks!
Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby D Pope » 11 Sep 2012 18:31

Freak wrote:Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

I like the idea that Bijaz was a prototype master.
I don't think that this was intended though.

For clarity's sake, they simply couldn't figure out how to do it, right?
(IF Idaho gets his memories back, we can duplicate the event.)
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2012 05:31

Why not?
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby D Pope » 12 Sep 2012 10:36

Understand that it's pure speculation;
I can't imagine a master engineering his replacement.
BT knew serial memories were on the table.
There's something poetic about the creation supplanting the creator.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Sep 2012 06:45

We don't know that there WERE castes before DM. Scytale seemed to have full decision making power and independence like a latter day master.
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby D Pope » 13 Sep 2012 11:33

The way I see it, Bijaz and perhaps Skytale were purpose built for this project.
When a method of restoring memory was discovered, more prototypes were constructed to explore this new thing.
Sometime, probably during Letos reign, these prototypes took over & established the culture present in Heretics.

Aside from that, an interesting topic for fan fiction would be getting the info back to BT.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2012 08:00

But this obviously wasn't Bijaz's first ghola lifetime. He may have been purpose built for this mission... but it wasn't the first time. :D
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Re: Can Face Dancers become Masters?

Postby D Pope » 14 Sep 2012 11:19

Agreed, these 'prototypes' would've come from proven stock.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos


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