Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

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Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 23 Sep 2016 12:16

While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Sep 2016 12:20

Maybe that's how they sped up his reflexes?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 23 Sep 2016 12:26

I think it has something to do with why he can see Daniel and Marty. I find myself thinking back on how the Kwisatz Haderach in Dune was described as "one who can be many places at once". Maybe it has something to do with how Duncan can remember all his Ghola lives not just the one's his Ghola body contains. Duncan is in many places at once! Literally!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 23 Sep 2016 14:24

I think it's just another hint that this Duncan is a mishmash of many different gholas all lumped together in one like a genetic Frankenstein's monster. Some of the original gholas had the gene, others didn't, and so there would be no way to know whether this Duncan would have the invisibility or not.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 23 Sep 2016 15:28

georgiedenbro wrote:I think it's just another hint that this Duncan is a mishmash of many different gholas all lumped together in one like a genetic Frankenstein's monster. Some of the original gholas had the gene, others didn't, and so there would be no way to know whether this Duncan would have the invisibility or not.


Do we know if any of the prescience users (ie paul, Leto II, or even odrade) ever "saw" Duncan? Also, Duncan spent the majority of his time around prescience users so would that block out most prescients looking for him?

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 24 Sep 2016 04:22

Godemperorjames wrote:I think it has something to do with why he can see Daniel and Marty. I find myself thinking back on how the Kwisatz Haderach in Dune was described as "one who can be many places at once". Maybe it has something to do with how Duncan can remember all his Ghola lives not just the one's his Ghola body contains. Duncan is in many places at once! Literally!

I think you mean meta-physically. I dont mean to sound pedantic but i hate when people misuse that word.
Anyway, im not sure if the siona gene had anything to do with Duncan seeing the face dancers. After all, he exhibited signs of rudimentary prescience in DM, seeing tiger claws and a feeling the twins were in danger.
I'd be more inclined to say it had something to do with attaining his lost lives.

Also, Duncan spent the majority of his time around prescience users so would that block out most prescients looking for him?

To be fair, he spent a lot of time within a noglobe. Before that he was in the Gammu keep under convention guard. The area outside the Harkonnen noglobe was intentially scorched so that both prescient searchers and live-trackers would believe he escaped in a noship.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 24 Sep 2016 07:01

Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 24 Sep 2016 10:35

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:I think it has something to do with why he can see Daniel and Marty. I find myself thinking back on how the Kwisatz Haderach in Dune was described as "one who can be many places at once". Maybe it has something to do with how Duncan can remember all his Ghola lives not just the one's his Ghola body contains. Duncan is in many places at once! Literally!

I think you mean meta-physically. I dont mean to sound pedantic but i hate when people misuse that word.
Anyway, im not sure if the siona gene had anything to do with Duncan seeing the face dancers. After all, he exhibited signs of rudimentary prescience in DM, seeing tiger claws and a feeling the twins were in danger.
I'd be more inclined to say it had something to do with attaining his lost lives.

Also, Duncan spent the majority of his time around prescience users so would that block out most prescients looking for him?

To be fair, he spent a lot of time within a noglobe. Before that he was in the Gammu keep under convention guard. The area outside the Harkonnen noglobe was intentially scorched so that both prescient searchers and live-trackers would believe he escaped in a noship.


I mean literally because there could be multiple Duncan gholas existing at the same time but thanks for the concern. He is literally existing in multiple places at once. Not metaphysically. Literally.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 24 Sep 2016 10:39

Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 24 Sep 2016 11:08

Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.


Did they? They had to kill quite a number of them before the final Duncan.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 24 Sep 2016 11:37

Godemperorjames wrote:
AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:I think it has something to do with why he can see Daniel and Marty. I find myself
I mean literally because there could be multiple Duncan gholas existing at the same time but thanks for the concern. He is literally existing in multiple places at once. Not metaphysically. Literally.


Yeah. No.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 24 Sep 2016 11:43

Godemperorjames wrote:I mean literally because there could be multiple Duncan gholas existing at the same time but thanks for the concern. He is literally existing in multiple places at once. Not metaphysically. Literally.

But there is absolutely no evidence of multiple Duncans existing simultaneously anywhere in the book. So what the hell are you talking about.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 24 Sep 2016 13:46

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:I mean literally because there could be multiple Duncan gholas existing at the same time but thanks for the concern. He is literally existing in multiple places at once. Not metaphysically. Literally.

But there is absolutely no evidence of multiple Duncans existing simultaneously anywhere in the book. So what the hell are you talking about.


I wouldn't say there is absolutely no evidence because Duncan's were prepared before even the last Duncan died as observed in GEoD. It can be literal in two ways. The tleilaxu made multiple ghola's that exist in the same moment (human perspective, I'm sure Leto II saw things differently) or Duncan exists in multiple places at once throughout space/time. I like the first answer better because it isn't as hokey but the second still fits the definition of "literally existing in multiple places at once". I'm not saying Duncan is seeing things like Paul. He is literally in different places because...you know...He's a ghola.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 24 Sep 2016 13:53

Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.


Did they? They had to kill quite a number of them before the final Duncan.


Always a possibility. Who knows the limitations the Tleilaxu had? I just think if they wanted a blue duncan they could probably make one. They made sligs and chairdogs. I could see it being difficult with more abstract gene stuff like prescience or the siona gene. So I could definitely be wrong!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 24 Sep 2016 15:49

There is zero textual evidence for this. Your theory might be a nifty idea for some fan fiction but it has nothing to do with Frank's books.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 24 Sep 2016 16:05

Godemperorjames wrote:I wouldn't say there is absolutely no evidence because Duncan's were prepared before even the last Duncan died as observed in GEoD.

Can you provide a quote from the book that indicates there were two or more Duncans walking around? No? Then there is absolutely no evidence for it.

Its an interesting theory, but you have nothing to back it up.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 24 Sep 2016 17:45

georgiedenbro wrote:There is zero textual evidence for this. Your theory might be a nifty idea for some fan fiction but it has nothing to do with Frank's books.


"'What do you wish done with it [Harkonnen contraband spice on Gammu] when it's found, Lord'

'Use a bit of it to pay the Tleilaxu for the new Ghola...'

...

'I will go to my tower,' he said. 'I must have more time to mourn my Duncan'

'The new one is already on the way here,' Moneo said"(God Emperor of Dune, pg 35-40)

My argument was in response to you saying, "there is absolutely no evidence of multiple Duncans existing simultaneously anywhere in the book" . This passage in God Emperor proves that multiple Duncan gholas (at least unawakened) could exist at the same time. If Duncan's body was still on the crypt floor, and Moneo was called in to discuss it, how could a Ghola be on its way over if the two existences didn't over lap. I'm not saying it is a strong argument. But there is something.


"Idaho, seated alone at his console, encountered an entry he had stored in Shipsystems during his first days of confinement, and found himself dumped (he applied the word later) into attitudes and sensory awareness of that earlier time. It no longer was afternoon of a frustrating day in the no-ship. He was back there, stretched between then and now the way serial ghola lives linked this incarnation to his original birth.

Immediately, he saw what he had come to call “the net” and the elderly couple defined by criss-crossed lines, bodies visible through a shimmering of jeweled ropes—green, blue, gold, and a silver so brilliant it made his eyes ache.

He sensed godlike stability in these people, but something common about them. The word ordinary came to mind. The by-now-familiar garden landscape stretched out behind them: floral bushes (roses, he thought), rolling lawns, tall trees.

The couple stared back at him with an intensity that made Idaho feel naked.

New power in the vision! It no longer was confined to the Great Hold, an increasingly compulsive magnet drawing him down there so frequently he knew the watchdogs were alerted.

Is he another Kwisatz Haderach?" (Chapterhouse: Dune, pg. 178)

As for my argument that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he "literally" exists in many places at once is supported by this passage and the following. Notice how Duncan Idaho describes himself as being stretched thin when going over his ghola memories. This is important when compared to how Daniel and Marty view him. Notice how Duncan asks himself if he is another Kwisatz Haderach and how he saw Daniel and Marty in his vision.



"All of those serial lives continued within him in defiance of Mentat relevancies. A Mentat came at his universe fresh in each instant. Nothing old, nothing new, nothing set in ancient adhesives, nothing truly known. You were the net and you existed only to examine the catch.

What did not go through? How fine a mesh did I use on this lot?

That was the Mentat view. But there was no way the Tleilaxu could have included all of those ghola-Idaho cells to recreate him. There had to be gaps in their serial collection of his cells. He had identified many of those gaps.

But no gaps in my memory. I remember them all.

He was a network linked outside of Time. That is how I can see the people of that vision … the net. It was the only explanation Mentat awareness could provide and if the Sisterhood guessed, they would be terrified. No matter how many times he denied it, they would say: “Another Kwisatz Haderach! Kill him!”(CH:D, pg. 208)

This passage reveals how Duncan is able to be "linked outside of Time" and how there are no gaps in his ghola memories.


"'Of what use would even a no-planet be if someone could penetrate the shielding?'

She glanced at the boy. Idaho knew their suspicion that the Bashar had seen the no-ships? Naturally! A Mentat of his abilities … bits and pieces assembled into a masterful projection.

'It would require the entire output of a G-3 sun to shield any halfway livable planet.' Dry and very cool the way she looked down at him.

'Nothing is out of the question in the Scattering.'

'But not within our present capabilities. Do you have something less ambitious?'

'Review the genetic markers in the cells of your people. Look for common patterns in Atreides inheritance. There may be talents you have not even guessed.'

'Your inventive imagination bounces around.'


...'Ixians havent penetrated Holzmann's unification concept', he said."(CH:D, pg. 231-232)

This passage reveals that Daniel and Marty have constructed a giant no-shield or some alternative ,by either solving the energy problem or by penetrating Holzmann's unification concept, around their planet/planets and that they can see into the no-ships of the old empire and people with the siona gene.


"'And I had such a nice planet picked out for them,” Marty said. “One of the best. A real test of their abilities.'

'No use moaning about it,” Daniel said. “They’re where we can’t touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy.'

'They had a Tleilaxu Master, too,” Marty said. “I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master.'

...

I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…”

'It’s personas we take, Marty.'

'Whatever. The Masters should’ve known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.'

'And theirs?'

'Oh, I’d have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn’t that right, Daniel?'

'When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses.' He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves and black blooms as large as his head.

Marty called after him: 'Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That’s what I’d have told him. And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I’d have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?'"(CH:D, pg. 432-433)

The final chapter gives interesting descriptions. The way Daniel and Marty describe what they saw and what they know is similar to the way Duncan Idaho describes his visions and himself. See how Marty focuses on gathering up memories and experiences while Daniel says they gather personas. Marty's hypothetical advice to Duncan hints about him gathering enough people and him getting a big ball of knowledge.

In conclusion, the idea that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he is literally in multiple places at once [albeit not from a non-duncan perspective] is not far-fetched or unsupported. Sincerely, suck my balls.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 00:52

Godemperorjames wrote:In conclusion, the idea that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he is literally in multiple places at once [albeit not from a non-duncan perspective] is not far-fetched or unsupported.


It is this conclusion that isn't supported by the text. All you've done is link being 'stretched thin' to 'literally being many places at once', which are not the same thing. You might say a kwizatch haderach is figuratively many places at once (i.e. in the future and the past, as well as 'the now'), but he is not physically situated in many places at once. And Duncan doesn't even overtly have the power of the oracle, so you're resting your argument on his memories of his series selves as somehow meaning all those copies of him are him currently being in another place. Which they aren't, because they're dead. Your addition of the passage about how the Tleilaxu would prepare a new gholas prior to the death of the previous one is likewise not evidence that there were multiple Duncans walking around freely simultaneously. While in fact it's not impossible that they were, the text never says so and therefore any assumption to that effect is your creation. All Frank tells us is that the BT needed to have a new ghola ready to send to Leto II in preparation for the current one being eliminated without much delay in between. He does not say that they created any more gholas than just what the God Emperor needed, and in fact it's pretty obvious that they didn't because he would have destroyed them for it.

I agree that 'stretched thin' is a concept to explore, and in the context of the story what's quite different about this as compared to Paul or Leto II is that while each of the latter had full OM like a RM, it was memories of other lives that they could draw upon from their DNA. Duncan, on the other hand, wasn't merely drawing on other people's memories but rather they were all his own actual memories. Duncan wasn't a young man who inherited anything; he was a physical continuation of the same exact Duncan who died for Paul. The cells were taken and regrown, which means a regeneration of the actual person rather than the creation of a new one with the same DNA. In other words, Duncan is for all intents and purposes thousands of years old, and this is indeed distinctly different from the KH's we've seen before. Obviously something about this is important in terms of M&D, but it's not the fact that Duncan has counterparts all over the place that he - through magic or whatever - can draw upon to generate 'powers.'
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 01:11

georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:In conclusion, the idea that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he is literally in multiple places at once [albeit not from a non-duncan perspective] is not far-fetched or unsupported.


It is this conclusion that isn't supported by the text. All you've done is link being 'stretched thin' to 'literally being many places at once', which are not the same thing. You might say a kwizatch haderach is figuratively many places at once (i.e. in the future and the past, as well as 'the now'), but he is not physically situated in many places at once. And Duncan doesn't even overtly have the power of the oracle, so you're resting your argument on his memories of his series selves as somehow meaning all those copies of him are him currently being in another place. Which they aren't, because they're dead. Your addition of the passage about how the Tleilaxu would prepare a new gholas prior to the death of the previous one is likewise not evidence that there were multiple Duncans walking around freely simultaneously. While in fact it's not impossible that they were, the text never says so and therefore any assumption to that effect is your creation. All Frank tells us is that the BT needed to have a new ghola ready to send to Leto II in preparation for the current one being eliminated without much delay in between. He does not say that they created any more gholas than just what the God Emperor needed, and in fact it's pretty obvious that they didn't because he would have destroyed them for it.

I agree that 'stretched thin' is a concept to explore, and in the context of the story what's quite different about this as compared to Paul or Leto II is that while each of the latter had full OM like a RM, it was memories of other lives that they could draw upon from their DNA. Duncan, on the other hand, wasn't merely drawing on other people's memories but rather they were all his own actual memories. Duncan wasn't a young man who inherited anything; he was a physical continuation of the same exact Duncan who died for Paul. The cells were taken and regrown, which means a regeneration of the actual person rather than the creation of a new one with the same DNA. In other words, Duncan is for all intents and purposes thousands of years old, and this is indeed distinctly different from the KH's we've seen before. Obviously something about this is important in terms of M&D, but it's not the fact that Duncan has counterparts all over the place that he - through magic or whatever - can draw upon to generate 'powers.'


Try to think how all those things link to Duncan. I'm sure you can figure it out. We think of "at once" differently. If there were 5 Duncans that existed at different times, it can be said Duncan literally existed five places at once. From the perspective of Duncan. At once doesn't need to be "happening parallel". You are getting all tripped on across time and at once.

I'm right.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 01:13

Mmm, mphh! Grlph. *slurp*

Still, no actual evidence that there is another Duncan walking around somewhere. By your own argument, in which Duncan is living all his lives concurrently (thus "remembering" them all), he would also know about any other hims. Wouldnt he? Yet he makes no mention of that, only his past.

Your best example is in GEoD, when Leto pretty much held the universe at ransom and always had a Duncan or two in reserve. But that doesnt apply to HoD/C:D, where the Tleilaxu are actively hunting Duncan. Stands to reason that would keep tabs on all their dangerous projects, ready to shut them down.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 01:25

AnEhforanEh wrote:Mmm, mphh! Grlph. *slurp*

Still, no actual evidence that there is another Duncan walking around somewhere. By your own argument, in which Duncan is living all his lives concurrently (thus "remembering" them all), he would also know about any other hims. Wouldnt he? Yet he makes no mention of that, only his past.

Your best example is in GEoD, when Leto pretty much held the universe at ransom and always had a Duncan or two in reserve. But that doesnt apply to HoD/C:D, where the Tleilaxu are actively hunting Duncan. Stands to reason that would keep tabs on all their dangerous projects, ready to shut them down.

PS - you now have herpes. Literally.


The tleilaxu are wiped out. Daniel and Marty are hunting him. They are trying to catch him when he is spread thin. Spread thin implies he is placing his finite Duncan person into multiple places. He is doing this while going through his ghola memories. The GEoD thing is less important. They are pretty heavily hinting that Duncan is a Kwisatz Haderach. Linked outside of time. He can see into the no-field of Daniel and Marty. What is important about this? We can see only 4 people doing this. Duncan, Teg, Daniel, and Marty. gholas or facedancers. Existing outside of time's meaning becomes clear. And also I'm realizing Daniel and Marty were the ones asking if he was another kwisatz haderach.

I'm sorry it doesn't just say, "Duncan is the kwisatz haderach because he literally exists in multiple places at once". You got to make the connections yourself.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 01:30

Godemperorjames wrote:Try to think how all those things link to Duncan. I'm sure you can figure it out. We think of "at once" differently. If there were 5 Duncans that existed at different times, it can be said Duncan literally existed five places at once. From the perspective of Duncan. At once doesn't need to be "happening parallel". You are getting all tripped on across time and at once.

I am literally five years old right now in the past.
Do you see how absurd that sounds?
I'm right.

Oh sh!t! My bad! You should have just opened with this to remove all doubt. :bow-yellow:

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 01:36

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:Try to think how all those things link to Duncan. I'm sure you can figure it out. We think of "at once" differently. If there were 5 Duncans that existed at different times, it can be said Duncan literally existed five places at once. From the perspective of Duncan. At once doesn't need to be "happening parallel". You are getting all tripped on across time and at once.

I am literally five years old right now in the past.
Do you see how absurd that sounds?
I'm right.

Oh sh!t! My bad! You should have just opened with this to remove all doubt. :bow-yellow:


1. You could say that from a certain perspective.You literally were 5 years old in the past.... should you be figuratively 5 years old? 2. Let's hear about all your other ghola lives? We aren't outside of time.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 01:45

georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:In conclusion, the idea that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he is literally in multiple places at once [albeit not from a non-duncan perspective] is not far-fetched or unsupported.


It is this conclusion that isn't supported by the text. All you've done is link being 'stretched thin' to 'literally being many places at once', which are not the same thing. You might say a kwizatch haderach is figuratively many places at once (i.e. in the future and the past, as well as 'the now'), but he is not physically situated in many places at once. And Duncan doesn't even overtly have the power of the oracle, so you're resting your argument on his memories of his series selves as somehow meaning all those copies of him are him currently being in another place. Which they aren't, because they're dead. Your addition of the passage about how the Tleilaxu would prepare a new gholas prior to the death of the previous one is likewise not evidence that there were multiple Duncans walking around freely simultaneously. While in fact it's not impossible that they were, the text never says so and therefore any assumption to that effect is your creation. All Frank tells us is that the BT needed to have a new ghola ready to send to Leto II in preparation for the current one being eliminated without much delay in between. He does not say that they created any more gholas than just what the God Emperor needed, and in fact it's pretty obvious that they didn't because he would have destroyed them for it.

I agree that 'stretched thin' is a concept to explore, and in the context of the story what's quite different about this as compared to Paul or Leto II is that while each of the latter had full OM like a RM, it was memories of other lives that they could draw upon from their DNA. Duncan, on the other hand, wasn't merely drawing on other people's memories but rather they were all his own actual memories. Duncan wasn't a young man who inherited anything; he was a physical continuation of the same exact Duncan who died for Paul. The cells were taken and regrown, which means a regeneration of the actual person rather than the creation of a new one with the same DNA. In other words, Duncan is for all intents and purposes thousands of years old, and this is indeed distinctly different from the KH's we've seen before. Obviously something about this is important in terms of M&D, but it's not the fact that Duncan has counterparts all over the place that he - through magic or whatever - can draw upon to generate 'powers.'



I just thought of a way that might make you understand! Duncan is not different in each duncan anymore. He is Duncan all Duncans. Those are all the Duncan. Think of Odrade speaking about how humans can balance strange things.

"But there was no way the Tleilaxu could have included all of those ghola-Idaho cells to recreate him. There had to be gaps in their serial collection of his cells. He had identified many of those gaps"

See. He can't have those cell memories. Duncan is Duncan but outside of time. Like the true Duncan is all of them.They are all Duncan. But that wasn't always the case from a certain perspective. and it was always the case from a certain perspective? Does that make sense?

georgiedenbro
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 01:56

Godemperorjames wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:Try to think how all those things link to Duncan. I'm sure you can figure it out. We think of "at once" differently. If there were 5 Duncans that existed at different times, it can be said Duncan literally existed five places at once. From the perspective of Duncan. At once doesn't need to be "happening parallel". You are getting all tripped on across time and at once.

I'm right.


Um...are you aware that what you just said is literally true of every living being who is more than zero seconds old? Every single individual 'exists or existed' in the past as well as the present. What you are not realizing is that the 'past Duncans' ARE Duncan. They are not previous versions or different individuals with similar DNA or whatever. They are him. He is thousands of years old. That's why he's different from everyone else. The BT masters could say the same, except their DNA was so altered from the human norm that they likely had no possibility to be latent oracles, as Freak has sometimes put it. The new Duncan, on the other hand, had his entire history of lives (connected through ghola awakenings) and had Atreides DNA thrown into the mix. The BT clearly knew something about Atreides DNA was special.

So no, the fact that Duncan's existed at different times is immaterial. Many 'Pauls' existed at different times too; age 15, age 16, etc. That's not what gave him his power; or rather, Frank says nothing to that effect. Paul, as the KH, was not 'many places at once' on account of the fact that he was once younger. That's just a useless truism and tells us nothing. Everyone was younger once, including Duncan. That fact that Duncan's younger self seems from a normal perspective to have been cut off by 'deaths' is irrelevant. The whole point of the BT technology is that death doesn't really kill someone.
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