Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

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Serkanner
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2016 13:50

Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.


Did they? They had to kill quite a number of them before the final Duncan.


Always a possibility. Who knows the limitations the Tleilaxu had? I just think if they wanted a blue duncan they could probably make one. They made sligs and chairdogs. I could see it being difficult with more abstract gene stuff like prescience or the siona gene. So I could definitely be wrong!


You stated that the Tleilaxu can make any Duncan they want, so according to you they didn't have limitations. My opinion is they did have limitations and it is supported by the text. Numerous Duncans were destroyed by the Teleilaxu because of "flaws", and the final Duncan was not what they expected. In other words: you are wrong.


Are you kidding me? What is up with you people? Why would i have the same opinion with new information? I was admitting that i dont know everything and anyone can be wrong. But you use that as a negative and then decide what my true opinion is?

Have fun with your simple thoughts. Im done arguing with you people just to argue. Did you guys even read the quotes? Its not my fault you cant see the connections.


Sigh ... dude. I will be mild because I have had a fucking awful day already and I wiull not ruin it any further.

You have a crap attitude. You come in here spouting all kinds of nonsense. We counter it with factual information from the text.

You remain ignorant and continues to say you are right and we are wrong. But we aren't. We base our opinion on what is in the texts. Period.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 13:58

Serkanner wrote:
Sigh ... dude. I will be mild because I have had a fucking awful day already and I wiull not ruin it any further.

You have a crap attitude. You come in here spouting all kinds of nonsense. We counter it with factual information from the text.

You remain ignorant and continues to say you are right and we are wrong. But we aren't. We base our opinion on what is in the texts. Period.


I hope you have a better day! I appreciate your honesty. Really. But it felt like people were arguing that my individual points don't support my theory. I'm not arguing each individual one makes what i'm saying clear. BUT, the information combined allows us to view the parameters set around Duncan or the characters in question. Each of the bits only gives a bit of info on what Herbert was planning for Dune 7 but, if taken together, it becomes revelatory!

I'm sorry I seemed (was) rude. You have come up with insightful opinions and i respect you. My argument is supported by the text while not in an obvious way. The points on their own are obvious but their relationship together is not.

AND, I'm arguing that if all assumptions [the mentat error. I can always have incorrect assumptions. but I dont think so in this case] remain true, the probability of this theory being correct is relatively high. I admit, probability is not an indication of "what is" or "what will". But its a step in the right direction, in my opinion. Again, I hope someone as insightful as yourself has a good day!

As a side note, i didnt see any quotes proving me wrong. So i would say " We counter it with factual information from the text" is a little bit a of a stretch. :P

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Sep 2016 14:40

Godemperorjames wrote:As a side note, i didnt see any quotes proving me wrong. So i would say " We counter it with factual information from the text" is a little bit a of a stretch. :P


In the absence of any positive evidence for a thing it is not possible to prove a negative. That's empiricism 101. Saying we use the text doesn't mean we only use quotes. The lack of a quote supporting something is evidence in itself.

You have yet to define what "outside of time" means. Until you can adequately do this your theory lacks a premise.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 15:24

georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:As a side note, i didnt see any quotes proving me wrong. So i would say " We counter it with factual information from the text" is a little bit a of a stretch. :P


In the absence of any positive evidence for a thing it is not possible to prove a negative. That's empiricism 101. Saying we use the text doesn't mean we only use quotes. The lack of a quote supporting something is evidence in itself.

You have yet to define what "outside of time" means. Until you can adequately do this your theory lacks a premise.


Fair points. I agree. But he said countered with factual information from the text.

One can define "outside of time" as a lot of thing; you are absolutely correct. I think of it like this. How is it Duncan is able to see lives he isnt physically connected to. There are a few facts we can extropolate from this: Cells play a part in Ghola memory but it isnt the 100% cause. What is the only thing linking Duncan to each of those memories? The answer is Duncan's personalty or whatever you would call Duncan as a whole. This is important when thinking about how Daniel and Marty hunt him while he is "spread thin" and how Duncan is "spread thin" when delving into Ghola memories. So we know Duncan somehow rememebers all his memories despite not having all the Tleilaxu cells and that memories play a part in how Daniel and Marty view Duncan. This must mean a finite Duncan is being placed in multiple places and the text suggests he is placing that Duncan in other Gholas. Again, the description of "spread thin" and when Duncan is spread thing is key.

Take that into account with the unique ability to see into no-fields. Who are the people that can see into no-fields? Duncan, Teg, Daniel, and Marty. What do they have in common: Atreides genes and multiple lives/personas. Both are important because we've never seen an Atreides ghola and either the Atreides gene mutated to see no fields and Duncan, Marty, and Daniel possess this. But then why dont the people on Chapterhouse see into no-fields if they have Other Memory and this Atreides wild type? The answer is suggested when Chapterhouse is viewed in conjuction with the parameters set by Daniel, Teg, Marty, and Daniel. What is different between these people and the people on Chapterhouse? They are gholas or facedancers that also possess the Atreides gene. What does this mean? That people with both the Atreides gene and multiple lives can somehow see into no-fields and Duncan's vision happens when he is "spread thin" through out his ghola lives.

How can finite duncan be spread thin if he is placing himself in the past and present? Duncan can only be spread thin if Duncan is finite and if where he places himself holds a Duncan amount. Duncan wouldn't be able to do this backwards in time if his personality wasn't "outside of time". Daniel and Marty seeing him "spread thin" proves that it isnt figuritive but literal. Two independent parties observed this. Daniel and Marty noting the significance implies in the least that this is something they are familiar with. So we ask the question how would they be familiar with this: either they spread themselves, they have caught someone who has, or both. So we seek out traits unique to Daniel, Marty, and Duncan. They all have multiple lives and can see into no fields. Who else do we see do this? Teg? And he fits the requirements set by the three previously mentioned. If these are the only characters that can see into no-fields, there must be a reason others under similar conditions could not. Like with RM with the siona gene and other memory. The difference between other memory and ghola memory, is that ghola memory is united by one personality. If Duncan can see all his memories despite not having all the cells, then he his personality must be connected in a non-linear, non-physical way. "Outside of time" allows Duncan to place himself in the past and spread himself thin. Not many other definitions of "outside of time" would allow for him to have all his memories in a non-linear way.

Something that would support this even further is if Teg was able to remember things his cells did not include since he was a clone. This would mean Teg is outside of time like Duncan, further demonstrating the relationship between existing outside of time and seeing into no-fields. The two become demonstrative of each other.

What do Daniel and Marty mean by caught then is the real question?
Last edited by Godemperorjames on 26 Sep 2016 15:55, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 15:34

Godemperorjames wrote:Think of all the people we know for a fact can see into no-fields and what they share in common.

Miles Teg... yep, just Teg.
M&D we can only assume had this ability. We do not know the nature or the limitations of it so no positive claim can be made.
Duncan could not see no-fields, which is a strong argument against M&D hiding behind one.

I already responded (as best I could) to the mass of quotes you claim support your theory. You ignore 95% of it and the one piece you address is completely misconstrued. Then out of nowhere you say you expected me to explain Teg's abilities. You're suddenly talking about dolphins when the topic was apples.

And yes, we are reading the same series. I just read it more, apparently.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 15:38

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:Think of all the people we know for a fact can see into no-fields and what they share in common.

Miles Teg... yep, just Teg.
M&D we can only assume had this ability. We do not know the nature or the limitations of it so no positive claim can be made.
Duncan could not see no-fields, which is a strong argument against M&D hiding behind one.

I already responded (as best I could) to the mass of quotes you claim support your theory. You ignore 95% of it and the one piece you address is completely misconstrued. Then out of nowhere you say you expected me to explain Teg's abilities. You're suddenly talking about dolphins when the topic was apples.

And yes, we are reading the same series. I just read it more, apparently.


We know for a fact Daniel and Marty can see into no fields because 1. They saw Duncan in a no-field while on chapterhouse and 2. They saw all the people escaping junction in a no-ship. Those people also had the siona gene. We know Duncan saw into a no-field because he saw Daniel and Marty. If the Honored Matres used no-ships and were fleeing from something overwhelmingly powerful, why wouldn't the existing guild navigators be able to see the danger if nothing was hiding it? Its because the danger is shielded. If Daniel and Marty know they can see into no-fields, why would they need one? To hide from the old empire because the people of the old empire have no idea no-fields are useless.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 15:58

So why wasnt Duncan able to see noships then? And why is the only no-field he seems capable of seeing through the one the FDs are presumably hiding behind?

Navigators had limited prescience. They have no reason to scan the entirety of the Scattering (if such a thing were even possible) to look for threats, etc.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 16:02

AnEhforanEh wrote:So why wasnt Duncan able to see noships then? And why is the only no-field he seems capable of seeing through the one the FDs are presumably hiding behind?

Navigators had limited prescience. They have no reason to scan the entirety of the Scattering (if such a thing were even possible) to look for threats, etc.


Good point with Guild Navigator prescience. Maybe they were afraid of Leto II level atreides preciesnce. Maybe. But everyone used no ships to hide so im sure anyone could be found or seen.

Teg wasnt always able to see no fields just near the end. He had the ability but demonstrated he didnt use/know it. So it makes it entirely possible Duncan didnt know how. No one but Duncan and Teg guessed people could see into no fields. No body really questioned it.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Sep 2016 16:37

I don't think "The Net" that Duncan saw was a no field. Maybe another use of Holtzman's equations though.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 16:42

Godemperorjames wrote:This is important when thinking about how Daniel and Marty hunt him while he is "spread thin" and how Duncan is "spread thin" when delving into Ghola memories.

You provided only two quotes referencing "spread thin." One while Duncan was accessing Shipsystems (and which I provided an equally viable alternative meaning to) and just as they escape "the net," at which time Duncan was again accessing Shipsystems. Also, Duncans "ghola" memories are indistinguishable from his normal (current) memories. He doesn't relate the "stretched thin" feeling at any other time when recalling past-life events. Yet you demand your interpretation is the correct one.

So we know Duncan somehow rememebers all his memories despite not having all the Tleilaxu cells and that memories play a part in how Daniel and Marty view Duncan.

Explain this statement.

This must mean a finite Duncan is being placed in multiple places and the text suggests he is placing that Duncan in other Gholas. Again, the description of "spread thin" and when Duncan is spread thing is key.

This is based entirely on your (probably incorrect) interpretation of "spread thin."
Function for me mentat: 2+2=5. What is the square root of 4738?

Take that into account with the unique ability to see into no-fields. Who are the people that can see into no-fields? Duncan, Teg, Daniel, and Marty.

Verify that Duncan can see no-fields.
What do they have in common: Atreides genes

Verify that M&D have Atriedes genes.
and multiple lives/personas.

Verify that Teg has multiple lives/personas. If ghola Teg is your response and that his abilities are working retroactively through time, explain why no other past Duncan shares his "present day" abilities.

Both are important because we've never seen an Atreides ghola and either the Atreides gene mutated to see no fields and Duncan, Marty, and Daniel possess this. But then why dont the people on Chapterhouse see into no-fields if they have Other Memory and this Atreides wild type?

Because your theory is hogwash?
The answer is suggested when Chapterhouse is viewed in conjuction with the parameters set by Daniel, Teg, Marty, and Daniel. What is different between these people and the people on Chapterhouse? They are gholas or facedancers that also possess the Atreides gene. What does this mean? That people with both the Atreides gene and multiple lives can somehow see into no-fields and Duncan's vision happens when he is "spread thin" through out his ghola lives.

Why this special emphasis on gholas? Why dont the Tleilaxu masters exhibit these abilities as well?

How can finite duncan be spread thin if he is placing himself in the past and present?<snip>

Okay, the rest of this hinges on accepting premises you havent shown to be accurate yet, so we can ignore it. The problem is you're trying to sell us a whole puzzle when the pieces don't fit.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Sep 2016 17:07

Freakzilla wrote:I don't think "The Net" that Duncan saw was a no field. Maybe another use of Holtzman's equations though.


More than just this. Duncan, M&D all blatantly could not see no-ships, which Teg could. His abilities and theirs are, so far, mutually exclusive. He has fast-consciousness and the ability to see no-ships, while Duncan and M&D have the ability to use 'the net', whatever that is. Teg cannot do what they do, and they cannot do what he does. So let's just remove Teg from this equation.

What M&D can do, apparently, is locate individuals, and I'm not even convinced that just any individual could be seen by them. So far the only definitive thing we know is they could see Duncan, and they could see the RM's who went into the Scattering (and even in the latter case I cannot be 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure). What those have in common is being 'stretched thin'. There is no direct evidence M&D could see anyone else other than RM's and Duncan. That's number one. Number two is that they couldn't even see Duncan once he wiped the computer's navigation records, meaning they couldn't know where Duncan was if he didn't (or the ship didn't). With the computer wiped they were entirely blind to him, which means that somehow either the computer itself mattered, or else some particular in Duncan's awareness mattered; for instance, his awareness of his own location. We don't know which it is.

Godemperorjames, you still seem to be stuck on "outside of time", though, using it for the purpose of definitions but never defining it. You have tried to link being "spread thin" with the trait attributed to the KH, which is being "many places at once". And yet Duncan apparently does not believe he's any kind of KH. He certainly doesn't possess the abilities we'd normally attribute to the KH, such as potential for the agony or prescient visions like Paul had. He showed some signs earlier of being a potential prescient but even so it wasn't clear-cut as it was with Paul and Leto II. Even after Duncan's awakening the abilities he has do not resemble those of the KH, and indeed his awareness of the net is NOT something the KH was able to do, despite the fact that all the KH's we've seen were spread thin in the BG way. So linking the visual imagery of being "many places at once" and "spread thin" seems to me a linguistic short circuit. The words sound similar, but nothing in the book suggests they are alike. Now, that being said, it does seem logical to me to suppose that something about how prescience works can be linked to how the net works; my guess is that both are uses of Holtzmann's theories, one instinctive, and the other bio-technological. But that does not mean that to use the biotech one must be a KH. The series seems to me to suggest that at this point being a KH is obsolete and not worth all that much fuss. Duncan is something new, as is Teg in a different way.

Another difference between Duncan & the BG is that the BG have to develop a singular personality before the agony so that the memories don't take over, while Duncan actually is the sum of all of his memories. In way that makes him like an abomination, but since the memories are of similar selves perhaps that doesn't create much destructive tension and he can function. Likewise, perhaps M&D are also the sum of their memories/personas, and I've thought for a while that they are probably abominations as well. But they are apparently stable ones, and so we could ask how they function like this. Leto II and Ghanima found a way to survive being abominations, and in Leto's case it required submitting fully to being a tyrant like the once persona in him that controlled the others. Ghani used a different trick. Still, the twins couldn't see 'the net', nor could Alia, and so being an abomination might be required but not sufficient to see the net. Perhaps it also requires artificial biotech, or perhaps there's some other factor. I've mentioned before that both Duncan and M&D are (IMO) double-imprinted, and I still think this is the key to the puzzle. Maybe being bonded to each other simply forces M&D to retain control over the voices since their absolute need for each other may override their succumbing to the voices.

Whatever the explanation is, "Duncan exists outside of time" seems to me an oversimplified suggestion lacking clear terms.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 17:20

Very good points, Freakzilla. I define outside of time meaning outisde of time. I know not very illuminating. Like think of the ghola bodies. No matter what, they follow time's linear path. They age and cant go backwards even if they wanted to. Outside of time, to me, means Duncan isnt bound by linear time like a body. His mind or whatever Duncan is "outside of time" as in not linear. Like each of the bodies exist in time but Duncan does not.

And im not saying Duncan time travels. Im saying linear time doesnt really apply to Duncan the mind thus outside of time.

I think Daniel and Marty seeing Duncan on chapterhouse is proof that they could see into no fields. Maybe Daniel and Marty weren't hidden by a no-field so maybe Duncan cannot see into no fields: if he couldnt, the whole argument falls apart.

Also, Paul doesnt fit all the descriptions given of Kwisatz haderach yet he is still labelled one. "Many places at once" "a male with the powers of a reverend mother".


I think Herbert threw it in as a an intentional red herring. I still think there is high probabilty Daniel and Marty are hidden by some kind of no-field so Duncan seeing them would mean Duncan can see into no fields. Maybe not but it is at least hinted at in the text. But who knows!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 17:44

you guys are right in saying that this argument depends on if multiple lives enable a person to be "outside of time", if "outside of time" is correlated with the ability to see into no ships, and if Daniel, Marty, and Teg exist outside of time too. These relationships depends on which characters have common traits and abilities.

I think there is a causation relationship by what the text suggested but I can see other people viewing the details as minor. I see not everyone see's it that way! i still thinks it's supported though! Even right!

SO, how does a person become outside of time if Duncan's mentat projection was correct. If it wasn't (which I doubt), then there is definitely no substance to this theory.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Sep 2016 17:57

Godemperorjames wrote:I define outside of time meaning outisde of time. I know not very illuminating. Like think of the ghola bodies. No matter what, they follow time's linear path. They age and cant go backwards even if they wanted to. Outside of time, to me, means Duncan isnt bound by linear time like a body. His mind or whatever Duncan is "outside of time" as in not linear. Like each of the bodies exist in time but Duncan does not.


I don't believe you realize how incoherent this 'definition' is. There is a difference between claiming that something about having serial memories gives one a unique insight into time, and saying that Duncan is "outside of time", whatever the hell that means. Nothing in the text directly or indirectly implies that he sees time as not affecting him, nor do his thoughts or method of functioning seem to imply that his mind functions in more tenses than the present. You're thinking of a KH when you say that, because for someone like Paul it was difficult if not impossible to define "the present." Not so for Duncan. Saying that Duncan's mind is 'non-linear' also seems to me a nifty sci-fi premise but not one specified from the text.

And im not saying Duncan time travels. Im saying linear time doesnt really apply to Duncan the mind thus outside of time.


Time is space. If he's outside of time that means he isn't in space either; i.e. doesn't exist. Now, you could argue that someone's consciousness could be non-local, which is different from saying it's 'outside' of time. For instance, consider the ability to communicate instantaneously across space. This is obviously possible with Holtzmann's equations, since instantaneous travel existed. That this seemed to not be used for pure communication in Dune is an issue that's been raised before. But let's say instantaneous communication is possible; that would mean you could create a computer network linking up local systems across distances in space. It would be a network, but non-local. Now if we suppose that minds can bridge the gap as well then one could imagine a mental network also having non-local properties. But not 'outside of time'; merely in time but not linearly. Is this what you mean? If so you'd have to assert that Duncan has direct connection with his previous iterations mentally. But how? Telepathy? Other than 'the sharing' this doesn't seem to be a thing. Maybe it would be a resonance thing. I'll give more thought to this.

I think Daniel and Marty seeing Duncan on chapterhouse is proof that they could see into no fields. Maybe Daniel and Marty weren't hidden by a no-field so maybe Duncan cannot see into no fields: if he couldnt, the whole argument falls apart.


This is a big no. That they could see Duncan while he was in a no-field is not evidence that they could "see into no fields" as such. It just means that nothing could impede them seeing Duncan under certain conditions. Like, for instance, if someone puts a video camera inside a stealth bomber and shows me the feed, that doesn't translate to me being able to say "I can see through the stealth of the bomber." It just means that whatever invisibility the no-field produces cannot stop something inside giving access to something from outside. Duncan took away their access and their ability to see him vanished. So yes, this part of your argument has already fallen apart.

Also, Paul doesnt fit all the descriptions given of Kwisatz haderach yet he is still labelled one. "Many places at once" "a male with the powers of a reverend mother".


Paul doesn't fit the idiotic assumptions the BG made about what the KH would be prior to them ever seeing one. It's because they lacked clarity about the relationship between future and past. Their own blindness to 'that other place' made them unable to grasp what he'd be. Paul initially denied he was the KH, possibly due to using their own limited definition, and later on he admitted he was it, most likely due to having to update the definition to what it actually is. Paul was many places at once (past, present and future all merged into an immediate "now") and he was a male RM. Not much more to say about that.

I still think there is high probabilty Daniel and Marty are hidden by some kind of no-field so Duncan seeing them would mean Duncan can see into no fields. Maybe not but it is at least hinted at in the text. But who knows!


There is no probability of it because it's not mentioned. You can choose to believe this, as in a religious sense of belief, but there is no textual support for this. Duncan could not see into no fields. Arguing they were in one just so you can prove he could is circular.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 19:12

Godemperorjames wrote:I think Herbert threw it in as a an intentional red herring. I still think there is high probabilty Daniel and Marty are hidden by some kind of no-field so Duncan seeing them would mean Duncan can see into no fields.

:lol:


Maybe not but it is at least hinted at in the text. But who knows!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 19:50

I'm sure at this point. What? Am I not supposed to change my mind with new information?

You guys act like admitting I could be wrong is a contradiction. At this point, I'm just going to be saying the same things.

I don't think I'm wrong with my individual points or my grasp of what Herbert meant when he wrote "outside of time"

You guys can believe whatever you want. I see the connections and I told you them and if you disagree that is fine. I still don't think i'm wrong.

Even if I was right, I doubt any of you would stop arguing.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 22:13

You havent answered any of the questions i brought up concerning the validity of your claims. It doesnt seem like you want to have a serious debate; instead you are dismissive, suggesting that anyone that doesnt agree with you simply doesnt get it.

How about you provide a classic "quote&reply" on my comment above.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 22:36

I don't know how to use forums effectively yet. I'll figure it out and do one of those.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2016 05:58

Godemperorjames wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:As a side note, i didnt see any quotes proving me wrong. So i would say " We counter it with factual information from the text" is a little bit a of a stretch. :P



The information is factual. I am not wasting my time looking up quotes for blowhards. You have a theory. Proof it. End of discussion.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2016 06:02

Godemperorjames wrote: Take that into account with the unique ability to see into no-fields. Who are the people that can see into no-fields? Duncan, Teg, Daniel, and Marty. What do they have in common: Atreides genes and multiple lives/personas.


Wrong. Teg could already see the no-ships before he was a ghola. It happened after they used the T-probe on him.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2016 06:10

Godemperorjames wrote:Also, Paul doesnt fit all the descriptions given of Kwisatz haderach yet he is still labelled one. "Many places at once" "a male with the powers of a reverend mother".


But Paul himself points out he is something completely different and not the KH the Bene Gesserit expected. In other words: it is of no value others label him. It is Paul himself who points us to what he really is.

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FFS!
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 27 Sep 2016 06:22

Serkanner wrote:Wrong. Teg could already see the no-ships before he was a ghola. It happened after they used the T-probe on him.


Yeah.
But his reasoning was that because Teg became a ghola in the future he was (ahem) "outside of time" so his ghola-given abilities somehow transcended time and space to bestow themselves upon non-ghola Teg.

At least that's the way i understood it...

I'm still waiting for him to "figure out how to use the forum effectively" so he can respond to the giant holes i punched in his theory.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2016 08:47

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I don't think "The Net" that Duncan saw was a no field. Maybe another use of Holtzman's equations though.


More than just this...


M&D seemed to be able to see BT Masters, too. Probably for the same reason they could see Duncan.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 27 Sep 2016 09:42

Freakzilla wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I don't think "The Net" that Duncan saw was a no field. Maybe another use of Holtzman's equations though.


More than just this...


M&D seemed to be able to see BT Masters, too. Probably for the same reason they could see Duncan.


I always had the sense that the "net" was a visual representation of a new technology* capable of predicting and redirecting a noship's path. The fact that M&D can see the other occupants of the ship may be something as simple as hijacking the ship's internal comeye array. They might have been able to break through a noships shielding, but nothing suggests they can also see Siona descendants.

It's interesting that Duncan seems to avoid capture by deleting critical elements from Shipsystems, suggesting the "net" was technological in nature, embedded in (or least interacting with) the noship's circuits. There is nothing overtly suggesting that Duncan is viewing M&D "psychically"; he may instead be mentally interfacing with the noship's computers and retracing the link back to the FD's device. Who knows. Not me. But Frank was certainly dabblingly in the notion of merging man and machine. Who knows to what extent?

I do find it curious, however, that his "visions" first began in the Great Hold, where the sandworm had been kept until it died and dissolved into sand trout. And that the visions only began after this had occurred. Might be nothing, but I'll mention it anyway.

* Of course we can't be sure that the ability was technological in nature; no mention was made of a screen or display at which the FDs were watching. The ability could have been biological in nature. The "big ball of knowledge" Marty references could hold more nuance than simply explaining how a FD can achieve independance from the Masters.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 27 Sep 2016 09:54

Freakzilla wrote:M&D seemed to be able to see BT Masters, too. Probably for the same reason they could see Duncan.


Good point, I had forgotten that.
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