Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 27 Sep 2016 22:32

Hey, guys! I just got home from class and im pretty beat! I didnt want to leave you guys hanging! Ill respond to your good questions when I can! (I know what a conveinent excuse lol)
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 28 Sep 2016 14:23

You provided only two quotes referencing "spread thin." One while Duncan was accessing Shipsystems (and which I provided an equally viable alternative meaning to) and just as they escape "the net," at which time Duncan was again accessing Shipsystems. Also, Duncans "ghola" memories are indistinguishable from his normal (current) memories. He doesn't relate the "stretched thin" feeling at any other time when recalling past-life events. Yet you demand your interpretation is the correct one.

I always thought this was to hide Duncan's record from the bene gesserit and his "dumping" was some kind of encryption technique. I never thought the dumping was what was causing Duncan to remember his lives. Provide textual evidence in the form of direct quotes and how they connect and maybe I'll consider it.

I think you are most likely misinterpreting the following quote:"Idaho, seated alone at his console, encountered an entry he had stored in Shipsystems during his first days of confinement, and found himself dumped (he applied the word later) into attitudes and sensory awareness of that earlier time. "(Ch:D, 178)

I can see how someone like yourself would connect it with Duncan's use of dump when reflecting on how he hides from prying eyes in the following quote:
"During his third year here he had made the system hide data for him, doing this with his own keys. To thwart the prying comeyes, he hid his action in plain sight. Obvious insertions for later retrieval but with an encrpyted second message. Easy for a Mentat and useful mostly as a trick, exploring the potentials of shipsystems. He had booby-trapped his data to a random dump without hope of recovery" (CH:D,198)

Duncan, in the first quote, describe how he is reminded of those events from an earlier time by looking over his records. I don't see anything suggesting he is like...interfacing or something if that is what you are suggesting.



So we know Duncan somehow rememebers all his memories despite not having all the Tleilaxu cells and that memories play a part in how Daniel and Marty view Duncan.


It is a fact Duncan remember's ghola lives that he does not possess the cells of. I don't think its shipsystems related

This must mean a finite Duncan is being placed in multiple places and the text suggests he is placing that Duncan in other Gholas. Again, the description of "spread thin" and when Duncan is spread thing is key.


It is a fact Duncan Idaho felt stretched and spread thin while reflecting on Ghola lives. It is a fact that Daniel and Marty saw him spread thin. This makes whatever Duncan is doing literal because two indepent parties observed it.

Verify that Duncan can see no-fields.


You are correct in your phrasing because we both know there is no way anyone can. But, we can think about the mentat projection he suggested to Bellonda. "Of what use would even a no-planet be if someone could penetrate the shielding?"

I could see someone such as yourself interpreting this as Duncan saying ,"Don't you see all our no shields are useless?"

BUT, it would make a lot more sense if Duncan was saying, "someone who can see us is hiding" when taken into consideration with his statement on how the old empire is a last retreat for the honored matres. So if Duncan can see the hunters, he can see behind noshields



Verify that M&D have Atriedes genes.


We know this for a fact since no one came back from the scattering and Marty and Daniel are the ones who've taken them. "absorbed them" or something

Why this special emphasis on gholas? Why dont the Tleilaxu masters exhibit these abilities as well?


Great question. Scytale for a fact contained the Siona gene because he was allowed to walk outside on chapterhouse while it is highly probable the others did not. Scytale is the little kwisatz haderach and ducan the big.

Where the heck did you guys{anehforaneh} get the idea with shipsystems? I could always be wrong so i'd love to see the evidence. Hope I answered some of your questions!
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 28 Sep 2016 14:37

These almost sound like troll responses. Also I don't why why this dude keeps saying "you guys" regarding posts by one person. I'm out of this discussion. Peace.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 28 Sep 2016 14:41

Understandable. I thought everyone in the thread wanted answers. Ill say anehforaneh from this point forward when writing about it. Like i said, im not too familiar with the forum format yet. Im getting there though!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 28 Sep 2016 16:18

Godemperorjames wrote:I always thought this was to hide Duncan's record from the bene gesserit and his "dumping" was some kind of encryption technique. I never thought the dumping was what was causing Duncan to remember his lives. Provide textual evidence in the form of direct quotes and how they connect and maybe I'll consider it.

Either you are purposely misconstruing my question (out of convenience?) or you display a remarkable inability to understand what people are saying.
Nowhere did I suggest Duncan was remembering is past lives through accessing Shipsystems. Your claim was that Duncan became stretched when remembering his past-life memories. You haven't provided any other cases where Duncan was stretched other than those two quotes, both of which occur while Duncan is accessing Shipsystems.

I think you are most likely misinterpreting the following quote:" ...
...
I can see how someone like yourself would connect it with Duncan's use of dump when reflecting on how he hides from prying eyes in the following quote:

In the first quote Duncan is reviewing an entry he made "during his first days of confinement," yet he didn't learn the trick of hiding his actions until the third year, evidenced by the second quote. This invalidates your assumption that "dumping" is an encryption technique.

Duncan, in the first quote, describe how he is reminded of these events from an earlier time by looking over his records. I don't see anything suggesting he is like...interfacing or something if that is what you are suggesting.

Okay, I asked you to provide some support for your claims, not try to rebuke what I said in a separate and completely unrelated post. Stay on topic here. (Besides, proving someone else wrong does not automatically prove you right.) :rollseyes:

So we know Duncan somehow rememebers all his memories despite not having all the Tleilaxu cells and that memories play a part in how Daniel and Marty view Duncan.


It is a fact Duncan remember's ghola lives that he does not possess the cells of. I don't think its shipsystems related
Ahh, doubling down on your dodge? The request was to explain how memories played a part in how M&D viewed Duncan (I added the emphasis back in since you removed it).

This must mean a finite Duncan is being placed in multiple places and the text suggests he is placing that Duncan in other Gholas. Again, the description of "spread thin" and when Duncan is spread thing is key.


It is a fact Duncan Idaho felt stretched and spread thin while reflecting on Ghola lives. It is a fact that Daniel and Marty saw him spread thin. This makes whatever Duncan is doing literal because two indepent parties observed it.

No. You dont understand. The "stretched thin" bit was something you needed to validate with my first question. You dont just get to assert that you are right by calling it "fact."

Verify that Duncan can see no-fields.


You are correct in your phrasing because we both know there is no way anyone can. But, we can think about the mentat projection he suggested to Bellonda. "Of what use would even a no-planet be if someone could penetrate the shielding?"

I could see someone such as yourself interpreting this as Duncan saying ,"Don't you see all our no shields are useless?"

BUT, it would make a lot more sense if Duncan was saying, "someone who can see us is hiding" when taken into consideration with his statement on how the old empire is a last retreat for the honored matres. So if Duncan can see the hunters, he can see behind noshields

I'll mark it down as a Zero then.

Verify that M&D have Atriedes genes.


We know this for a fact since no one came back from the scattering and Marty and Daniel are the ones who've taken them. "absorbed them" or something

Wow. Okay. When a Face Dancer takes somebody's persona they do not "absorb" that person's genetic makeup. Otherwise, every RM would be some kind of fucking Cronenburg.

Why this special emphasis on gholas? Why dont the Tleilaxu masters exhibit these abilities as well?


Great question. Scytale for a fact contained the Siona gene while it is highly probable the others did not. Scytale is the little kwisatz haderach and ducan the big.

Assuming this is right (I dont recall Scytale saying he has the Siona gene) it doesnt answer the question. Why are gholas the only ones able to do whatever it is you claim they can do?
And I believe you are just inserting the term "KH". The FD simply referred to them as the big one and little one (referring most likely to Duncan and Teg) since they make separate note of Scytale.

And you completely skipped my question on Teg. Why? It was one of the more important ones.

And what is someone-like-me?

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 28 Sep 2016 16:53

I wasnt trying to push your questions aside. I was just addressing that i didnt feel your alternate explanation was supported.

The Teg outside of time theory I have isnt supported at the moment. I gave quotes and i explained outside of time and how i felt it related to ghola memories.

While not supported now, i think proof could be found if ghola Teg was able to have memories from before the Bashars cells were collected because then Duncans explanation for his memories would fit for Teg as well.

The facts i said are facts because there are no alternative answers. Not because i declared it. Like there is no other reason the bene gesserit would let scytale walk in the open on chapterhouse. It is a fact duncan remembers things his cells dont contain.

I provided quotes and how i saw them connected. I admitted that other people can see it differently. Not much else i can say.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 28 Sep 2016 18:50

Godemperorjames wrote:I wasnt trying to push your questions aside. I was just addressing that i didnt feel your alternate explanation was supported.

Except that is exactly "pushing aside" my question. You avoiding answering it by making your response about something else. So I ask again, demonstrate Duncan being "stretched thin" when recalling any other past memory.

The Teg outside of time theory I have isnt supported at the moment. I gave quotes and i explained outside of time and how i felt it related to ghola memories.

A questionable assertion in itself, which others werent satified with the explaination to. I'm less concerned with whatever you mean by "outside of time" since there are other, more glaring issues with your theory.

While not supported now, i think proof could be found if ghola Teg was able to have memories from before the Bashars cells were collected because then Duncans explanation for his memories would fit for Teg as well.

My gosh, man! Supposition and equivocation are the weakest stances to take in a debate. If only gholas can be "outside of time"/see no-fields/etc. how was Teg able to do it before be became a ghola?

The facts i said are facts because there are no alternative answers. Not because i declared it.

No. You just dont accept any alternative answers except the ones you declare.

It is a fact duncan remembers things his cells dont contain.

I was never reputing this. The fact that you seem to think this is my position is disingenuous, and can only be an attempt to diminish my position. I'm beginning to think it's deliberate.

I provided quotes and how i saw them connected. I admitted that other people can see it differently. Not much else i can say.

Except that when people dont see it your way and ask for clarifications all you have is insults and weak, unsupported assumptions. You strike me as the type of person who paints himself into a corner and then blames the brush.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 28 Sep 2016 19:11

Teg remembering cells he doesnt contain would mean his means of remembering them are the same as Duncans. Im not saying this exists but there is a chance. I haven't kept my eye open for thise things when reading chapterhouse. I will the next read.

The things i said were facts are facts? Idk how you have on opinion on facts. Like that is what happened. And do your propose any alternate explanations for why scytale was allowed to walk outside on chapterhouse?

I give you my explanations and you say you "knock holes" in them but i end up saying the same things. It will just come down to what you agree with.

Look. I thing Teg being outside of time would retroactively guve him the ability to see no-ships. I explained to you why i think this. I provided quotes and how i saw them connected. Perhaps this is more about semantics.

You can see me however you want. Im trying to think from your perspective, so i hope you have a good day. You can have the last word if you want.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 28 Sep 2016 20:05

Godemperorjames wrote:Teg remembering cells he doesnt contain would mean his means of remembering them are the same as Duncans. Im not saying this exists but there is a chance. I haven't kept my eye open for thise things when reading chapterhouse. I will the next read.

Do you always jump to conclusions before having all (or any) evidence?

The things i said were facts are facts? Idk how you have on opinion on facts. Like that is what happened. And do your propose any alternate explanations for why scytale was allowed to walk outside on chapterhouse?

The Tleilaxu made their own KH without access to Paul's cells. Maybe they made their version of the Siona gene? Master cells were also immune to Sharing. Granted, it might be more likely they just use real the Siona gene, given its proliferation, but you just wanted an alternative explanation.

I give you my explanations and you say you "knock holes" in them but i end up saying the same things.

Did you just admit that you repeat yourself instead explaining yourself? Ohhh- kay.

Look. I thing Teg being outside of time would retroactively guve him the ability to see no-ships.

I suspected as much. Then how come all the past Duncans didnt share his abilities?
I explained to you why i think this. I provided quotes and how i saw them connected. Perhaps this is more about semantics.

Yeah. It requires delusions.

You can see me however you want. Im trying to think from your perspective, so i hope you have a good day. You can have the last word if you want.

Does this mean you're done?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 01 Oct 2016 09:13

I'll say one thing that hadn't occurred to me before. For a long time, when assessing whether OM could really exist rather than being a fantasy element in a book, we're been assuming that it's all encoded into the DNA somehow and that the RM's merely read what's there internally. While the books are fairly clear that it's 'genetic' memory, meaning someone the genes make this possible, they don't outright say that the information is literally coded into the genes. If it was, in theory a computer could extract it, you'd think.

But what if there's something to the idea that Duncan in CH:D can recall all of his past iterations because of a form of limited prescience, where he's only sensitive to DNA similar to his? Some form of resonance across time, if you will. Assuming just for the moment this is possible, it would imply that any ghola at all who awakens to his old memories may in fact be channelling that same ability to some extent rather than just 'activating' the memories that are inside him. Put another way, what if memory of this sort is a non-local phenomenon? If so, it might even imply that the BG after the agony are channelling this same source, able to peer into past lives but without quite having them close at hand as 'easy' memory.

It's a stretch, perhaps, and I'm inclined to disagree with this premise in a way, but I'll think about it some more. There is definitely a difference in the books in how OM is accessed versus the serial memories, and so maybe we would have to say that memory 'can be' non-local but it's entirely local for the BG.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 01 Oct 2016 20:37

Now you are on the track I was on! I thought about the difference's between RM and Ghola memory.

But, we know RM's can pass on memories by touching their heads together somehow. Like with Murbella and Odrade. Wouldn't this make it much more likely they would have memories existing parallel in time, unlike gholas? Its weird piercing into this idea.

BUT, I think it's because of a centralized personality. Seems like a Herbert thing to do and I showed how I thought this was why Duncan could recall all his lives. And RM's aren't one personality. How does Daniel and Marty fit into that? Don't facedancers acquire lives in a similar way so why can't RM's do things Daniel and Marty can do in terms of other memory?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 01 Oct 2016 22:55

Do you think Atreides ancestral memory like Leto II had has anything do with this phenomenon?

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 01 Oct 2016 23:49

Godemperorjames wrote:Do you think Atreides ancestral memory like Leto II had has anything do with this phenomenon?


Leto II's OM was the exact same as that of a RM, except he had the male line as well. Whatever he was doing in terms of OM, it was the same as a RM would do. He was also a KH, which perhaps means he could scan the past as well, so one wonders exactly whether a KH is limited by those memories in his direct lineage or whether he can use prescience to see other lives as well. I honestly don't think it's important to the story, which is why FH didn't include that detail, but I guess it's worth thinking about.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 02 Oct 2016 04:43

Godemperorjames wrote:Wouldn't this make it much more likely they would have memories existing parallel in time, unlike gholas?


Do you mean they (Murbella and Odrade) have the same memories after sharing? What does it have to do with ghola's?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Oct 2016 08:56

georgiedenbro wrote:..they don't outright say that the information is literally coded into the genes.


"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.
"I know my father as my mother knew him," she said. "In every last detail of
every experience she shared with him. In a way, I am my mother. I have all her
memories up to the moment when she drank the Water of Life and entered the
trance of transmigration."

~Dune Messiah
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Oct 2016 09:19

georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:Do you think Atreides ancestral memory like Leto II had has anything do with this phenomenon?


Leto II's OM was the exact same as that of a RM, except he had the male line as well.


Another difference is that Leto had total recall of his ancestor's lives where a RMs memories come to them in times of need or they have to search for them.

"Because the memory of being human is so rich in him. Think of all those
lives, cousin. No. You can't imagine what that is because you've no experience
of it. But I know. I can imagine his pain. He gives more than anyone ever gave
before. Our father walked into the desert trying to escape it. Alia became
Abomination in fear of it. Our grandmother has only the blurred infancy of this
condition, yet must use every Bene Gesserit wile to live with it -- which is
what Reverend Mother training amounts to anyway. But Leto! He's all alone, never
to be duplicated."

~Children of Dune

Whatever he was doing in terms of OM, it was the same as a RM would do. He was also a KH, which perhaps means he could scan the past as well, so one wonders exactly whether a KH is limited by those memories in his direct lineage or whether he can use prescience to see other lives as well. I honestly don't think it's important to the story, which is why FH didn't include that detail, but I guess it's worth thinking about.


Leto's prescience was not limited to the future.

And the bas-relief imagery persisted. Intrusions hammered at him. Past-present-
now. There was no true separation. He knew he had to flow with this
thing, but the flowing terrified him. How could he return to any recognizable
place? Yet he felt himself being forced to cease every effort of resistance. He
could not grasp his new universe in motionless, labeled bits. No bit would stand
still. Things could not be forever ordered and formulated. He had to find the
rhythm of change and see between the changes to the changing itself. Without
knowing where it began he found himself moving within a gigantic moment
bienheureux, able to see the past in the future, present in past, the now in
both past and future. It was the accumulation of centuries experienced between
one heartbeat and the next.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 03 Oct 2016 10:37

Thank you for those insightful quotes, Freakzilla! All this info makes this confusing! I subscribe to the idealogy that they (Leto's prescience and Duncan's other memory) must connect somehow.

I think these quotes establish the nature of prescience as non-local in terms of time. Do you think its possible Leto II could access all the persons/lives he contained rather than dna? It seems hard to believe that all that information was contained in his cells. Maybe the tags if you know what i mean by that? Like the link that allowed Leto II to find those lives. Just a thought.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 03 Oct 2016 10:44

On a philosophical note, the nature of the present is pretty confusing from a Herbert perspective! It's the only thing that exists but also it doesn't because its an illusion! Weird! Hard to think of the universe as a whole and as the present.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Oct 2016 12:00

He talks about that specifically in the quote I provided above. There is no separation between past, present and future. If you think about it, time is the illusion. The truth is, things move. That's what time is, an abstract measurement of motion. If there were no motion there would be no time.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 03 Oct 2016 13:20

Freakzilla wrote: The truth is, things move. That's what time is, an abstract measurement of motion. If there were no motion there would be no time.


Time from our perspective at least. Motion requires linear time. A thing will be here then there. Thinking of time as an independent abstract (or at least connected or the same thing as space), motion,to me, becomes more of a description along the parameters of time. Maybe entropy?

And how do choices in the present jack all of this up? I don't think choices are an illusion. One could know all the particle interactions since the beginning of time and still not predict a human choosing something non-logical. So the present exists because we can make choices? But even that is an illusion. A real illusion thanks to perspective!

Like this idea that time passes doesn't make sense from a non-human perspective. It all just is from start to finish and everything is a side effect. I think entropy and the way we perceive time are the same thing. But it's almost impossible for a human to truly grasp whatever the heck time is. Not arguing with you! Just adding my cents.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Oct 2016 13:35

A day is the measure of how long it takes the Earth takes to rotate once, a year is a measure of how many days it takes to revolve around the sun. If we didn't count, it would still move. Time is a dimension like length, width and height.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 03 Oct 2016 13:46

But a dimension is a description. And even by defining time as a dimension, it becomes a really weird one when thinking about tiny things or the universe as a whole. Like...how do those things move along(or are placed on.Whatever the right word is) the time axis if thinking about time as a dimension.

I think a lot of stuff works from our perspective but we dont really understand why or how. Imagine time for a thing moving across a black hole....probably kind of weird. Time would pass more and slowly the farther you pass beyond the horizon, right? And time passing requires a human perspective. Wouldnt it be just the stuff going in is mashed more quickly towards the center then the front so you would be stretched exponentially more the closer you got?

How would even standard dimensions work in there?!? Confusing. Like one would have to incorporate the exponential changes between intervals with exact precision. How do atoms even work in a black hole?! Wouldn't the space between two things approach infinity?!

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Oct 2016 15:00

The fact is we have no idea what time is. It certainly seems to be defined by movement through space and relative location, but more than that we cannot say. We have no answer as of now why time moves in only one direction, for instance. Defining it as a "dimension" is sort of standard nomenclature now, but the word "dimension" shouldn't confuse us into thinking it means 'some other place beyond space.' It is space. Suffice to say it's at least tied up with space - spacetime. There is no reason we know of to suppose it exists in any independent way from merely a reference to motion in space. Or, if I may make it more specific, to the periodic nature of atomic orbitals/energy levels. The sine wave of an oscillating particle (such is the basis of the atomic clock) is the true designator of what we can call 'intervals', and movement through space is a vast complex version of this. As such, being able to remotely detect what's happening somewhere else in space at FTL speed is equivalent in every sense we know to being able to see 'through' time.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 03 Oct 2016 15:21

I think of a dimension as an axis of description. like x,y, and z. I like your point with orbitals and i've been thinking (no mathematics so i can't really understand. I'm a bio major lol) about the position of electrons based on our understanding of timespace. Our idea of movement makes no sense within the context of orbitals and electrons. Like they will probably be there? But they could not probably be anywhere! Like...I can't wrap my mind around it. They aren't orbiting like a planet or something like that. They are there then not there but also there? Like what is the point of defining movement as along x,y,z, and time? The electron would be there then there probably but it seems like time doesn't influence this? like it is probably there any given moment and probably not a place any given moment. But it isn't like the electron is "moving" in a typical sense. Of course it has to be moving, but like....how? Timespace cant be applied how we normally think about it since the electron isn't there then there. All these things are part of the same phenomenon. The question is what is the true nature of the deeper phenomenon!

Like, if we froze time somehow, where would the electron be? Wouldn't it be probably in all of those places and also not?

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Oct 2016 20:20

Just think of an 'orbital' as being an oscillating unit, rather than a bunch of 'things' that do strange things. You remove your headache that way. That there are 'little things flying about' is merely an interpretation of quantum, and not an empirical observation. And yes, spacetime would certainly be affected by anything massive, including electrons. It's just that quantum gravity is needed to discuss that, which we don't have yet as a formalized system.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"


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