Evolution of Gholas

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Postby SandChigger » 19 Feb 2008 12:29

Afterthought on the non-Mentat gholas:

This is essentially the same issue as in the question of whether a ghola RM would still be an RM, or instead simply remember being an RM, once her memories were awakened?

I think Freak pointed this out somewhere already, but the Duncan in GEoD doesn't remember the wife and children of the previous ghola, so it's obvious that he was not created from its cells. Also, it seems that the BT always had a replacement Duncan waiting in the tanks, since Leto went through them like a horny teen goes through boxes of Kleenex. ;)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Fantômas » 19 Feb 2008 13:18

went through them like a horny teen goes through boxes of Kleenex.
:roll:

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Postby SandChigger » 19 Feb 2008 20:31

Oh, like you never. :roll:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby inhuien » 20 Feb 2008 06:06

Ah the many faces of Duncan. Well it’s stated that there are gaps in his chain of memories, Yes, It’s stated that his genetic make up was tapered with i.e. not pure, yes.

Is Duncan the last not just another of Frank Herbert’s master strokes as well as all the other layers he was yet again another on going experiment by the Bene Tleilax Masters in their search for serial longevity/immortality.
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Postby Fantômas » 20 Feb 2008 08:40

your turtle.. thing..avatar is trying to hipnotize me! Help! Stop moving.

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Postby Tyrant Worm » 20 Feb 2008 08:58

(Even though I bought Sadworms, I don't buy Duncan as the "Ultimate KH" as presented therein.)



I don't think many people do. At least not the more intelligent ones. If it were the case, wouldn't he have had to display SOME level of prescience in the original Dune?
Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and perpetrator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself—a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
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Postby inhuien » 20 Feb 2008 09:07

fantomas wrote:your turtle.. thing..avatar is trying to hipnotize me! Help! Stop moving.


Now you will be sure to tell me when he/it/she succeeds. :twisted: :twisted:
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Postby Fantômas » 20 Feb 2008 09:16

:evil:

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Postby SandChigger » 20 Feb 2008 10:43

Surely the Master of Crime and Evil is not frightened by a bouncy...thingie?! Ambition should of sterner shtuff be made.

Tyrant Worm wrote:I don't think many people do. At least not the more intelligent ones. If it were the case, wouldn't he have had to display SOME level of prescience in the original Dune?

Hmm...not for the first time you tweek my chiggy sense. Curious...

Anyway...did you mean in Dune the original book or in the original series? But yeah, you (one) would think so. Can you think of any examples? Other than the general weirdness in CHD.

Edit: I noted elsewhere earlier in the day that Byron sees evidence in Heretics that Duncan was intended to become a KH. (Indeed, the UKH.) But I fear I must regard his readings as suspect now, and motivated by other considerations besides an honest search for the truth. Ah well.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 20 Feb 2008 11:27

Surely the Master of Crime and Evil is not frightened by a bouncy...thingie?! Ambition should of sterner shtuff be made



It is.. It scares Fantomas..the Happy, Bouncie, Thingie

Sit. Lay Down. Be Still!!!!!!!

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Postby SandChigger » 20 Feb 2008 12:32

fantomas wrote:
Surely the Master of Crime and Evil is not frightened by a bouncy...thingie?! Ambition should of sterner shtuff be made



It is.. It scares Fantomas..the Happy, Bouncie, Thingie

Sit. Lay Down. Be Still!!!!!!!

Alas! You have your own words ensnared in a net of quotation!

I do hope you are more agile in the working of crime and evil! :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 15:35

inhuien wrote:Ah the many faces of Duncan. Well it’s stated that there are gaps in his chain of memories, Yes, It’s stated that his genetic make up was tapered with i.e. not pure, yes.

Is Duncan the last not just another of Frank Herbert’s master strokes as well as all the other layers he was yet again another on going experiment by the Bene Tleilax Masters in their search for serial longevity/immortality.


That's kind of what I think. Maybe not just for that goal, but something along those lines. I buy that much more than some sort of "soul" or whatever that is providing him these memories.
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Postby Rakis » 20 Feb 2008 22:22

Tleilax Master B wrote:
inhuien wrote:Ah the many faces of Duncan. Well it’s stated that there are gaps in his chain of memories, Yes, It’s stated that his genetic make up was tapered with i.e. not pure, yes.

Is Duncan the last not just another of Frank Herbert’s master strokes as well as all the other layers he was yet again another on going experiment by the Bene Tleilax Masters in their search for serial longevity/immortality.


That's kind of what I think. Maybe not just for that goal, but something along those lines. I buy that much more than some sort of "soul" or whatever that is providing him these memories.


Maybe just the result of a Holy accident...or cells brought by the Lost Tlelaxu (Marty and Daniel-like cells ?)...
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Postby inhuien » 23 Feb 2008 08:44

While researching something else I came across this, a discussion between Leto the Second and Malky the Ixian ex-ambassador.

Frank Herbert in GEoD wrote:"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."


Their talking about the construction and alteration of Hwi, who is a clone of Malky. Now if the Ixians are able to do this without the direct hands-on assistance of the Bene Tleilax I conclude from that that the Ixians did not have a Bene Tleilax female in which to grow and birth their clone, so they didn’t need one. Ergo at this point at least in the Dune saga an axlotl tank was just that. Of course it could be completely different in the case of Gholas.
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Feb 2008 10:57

inhuien wrote:While researching something else I came across this, a discussion between Leto the Second and Malky the Ixian ex-ambassador.

Frank Herbert in GEoD wrote:"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."


Their talking about the construction and alteration of Hwi, who is a clone of Malky. Now if the Ixians are able to do this without the direct hands-on assistance of the Bene Tleilax I conclude from that that the Ixians did not have a Bene Tleilax female in which to grow and birth their clone, so they didn’t need one. Ergo at this point at least in the Dune saga an axlotl tank was just that. Of course it could be completely different in the case of Gholas.


Why couldn't the Ixians have made a tank from one of their own women?

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Postby inhuien » 23 Feb 2008 12:11

I don't really know, just that it doesn't feel like a very Ixian thing to do that's all. :roll: @meself :wink:
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Postby Phaedrus » 23 Feb 2008 20:27

Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:While researching something else I came across this, a discussion between Leto the Second and Malky the Ixian ex-ambassador.

Frank Herbert in GEoD wrote:"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."


Their talking about the construction and alteration of Hwi, who is a clone of Malky. Now if the Ixians are able to do this without the direct hands-on assistance of the Bene Tleilax I conclude from that that the Ixians did not have a Bene Tleilax female in which to grow and birth their clone, so they didn’t need one. Ergo at this point at least in the Dune saga an axlotl tank was just that. Of course it could be completely different in the case of Gholas.


Why couldn't the Ixians have made a tank from one of their own women?


Who said this particular technique needed an axlotl tank? It's also entirely possible that the Tleilaxu taught the Ixians to modify the infant while it was still in the womb, without converting the mother into a tank.

I don't think they would give up their secrets that easily. Especially not for a plot to destroy their Prophet, no?

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Postby Phaedrus » 23 Feb 2008 20:34

SandChigger wrote:
Tyrant Worm wrote:I don't think many people do. At least not the more intelligent ones. If it were the case, wouldn't he have had to display SOME level of prescience in the original Dune?

Hmm...not for the first time you tweek my chiggy sense. Curious...

Anyway...did you mean in Dune the original book or in the original series? But yeah, you (one) would think so. Can you think of any examples? Other than the general weirdness in CHD.


As usual, it's my unfortunate duty to be the bearer of the bad counterexample:

In Children of Dune, during Alia's conference on "threats to her person," Idaho has a vision of claws attacking the twins. And I quote:
Idaho stared at her. He had no particular datum to reinforce an argument based on mentat computation, but he knew. He knew. This thing he'd experienced came very close to the visionary power which Paul had known. Neither Irulan nor Alia would believe it, coming from him.

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Postby SandChigger » 23 Feb 2008 21:32

Thanks! :D

(Nothing unfortunate or bad about a counterexample. Mine was a genuine question; I didn't think of/remember that passage. Again, Duncan isn't high on my list of interests. ;) )
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Phaedrus » 23 Feb 2008 22:05

SandChigger wrote:Thanks! :D

(Nothing unfortunate or bad about a counterexample. Mine was a genuine question; I didn't think of/remember that passage. Again, Duncan isn't high on my list of interests. ;) )


I dislike the Duncan Idaho in GEoD, up until the end. But I think Hayt may be one of the best-written characters in the series, and I see the Heretics/Chapterhouse Duncan as an extension of Hayt. Mentat Duncan is much more bearable than non-Mentat Duncan, IMO.

And I never like being the person supplying evidence that may seem to support crazy ideas. I don't think Duncan was meant to be a KH. I don't think FH meant to write another KH in the first place. Idaho, Teg, and Sheeana all have interesting abilities, but none of them is quite what Leto or Paul was, with damn good reason.

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Postby SandChigger » 23 Feb 2008 22:18

Agreed. :)

Ah, if only we could know what FH really intended.... :cry:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby inhuien » 24 Feb 2008 07:52

Phaedrus wrote:And I quote:
Idaho stared at her. He had no particular datum to reinforce an argument based on mentat computation, but he knew. He knew. This thing he'd experienced came very close to the visionary power which Paul had known. Neither Irulan nor Alia would believe it, coming from him.


The vital element in the quote is that it came very close to the visionary power which Paul knew. So in my eyes he had an intuitive leap, circumventing logic perhaps but it was not, as Frank Herbert states, a vision.

UberKH my arse :D
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 25 Feb 2008 16:07

Duncan has had some experiences that seem to border on "powers" such as possibly prescient visions, memories for which he does not have those cells, etc., but as was mentioned earlier let's try to keep in mind that there were alot of these types of things occurring without being a KH--Teg's abilities being the most obvious. But remember, Bijaz was prescient, was he a KH? Of course not.

The real point here is that the key to being a KH is accessing BOTH female and male OMs--Duncan CAN'T DO EITHER, therefore he is NOT a "male Reverend Mother" and thus CAN'T be a freaking KH!
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Postby inhuien » 25 Feb 2008 16:29

Tleilax Master B wrote:The real point here is that the key to being a KH is accessing BOTH female and male OMs--Duncan CAN'T DO EITHER, therefore he is NOT a "male Reverend Mother" and thus CAN'T be a freaking KH!


Now now Tleilax Master B you're sitting on the fence again, say what you really mean ;)
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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Feb 2008 21:29

inhuien wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:The real point here is that the key to being a KH is accessing BOTH female and male OMs--Duncan CAN'T DO EITHER, therefore he is NOT a "male Reverend Mother" and thus CAN'T be a freaking KH!


Now now Tleilax Master B you're sitting on the fence again, say what you really mean ;)


Neither could he see the future.


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