Meetings of the Landsraad

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2011 08:50

Setzer wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
lukecash12 wrote:
Setzer wrote:Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

The Corrinos were concerned about the balance of power, not the Atreides. From Paul onwards, the Atreides were perfectly willing to stomp on everyone else to get what they wanted. Only in union did the Landsraad match the Sardaukar. When united against the Fremen, the Great Houses still stood no chance. The Atreides only had to worry about keeping the loyalty of the Fremen.


You do have a point, that for a while the Landsraad wasn't a concern. But it was once again in Children of Dune, for Alia. She had a discussion with Duncan and Irulan that expressed that, amongst other things.


That was because House Corrino then became just another Great House of the Landsraad. The Sardaukar plus the combined forces of the rest of the landsraad might could beat the Atreides.


I don't think so. After all, House Corrino only had one legion left. Even if it was back up to the standards that made the Sardaukar feared, that wouldn't break the Guild's stranglehold on space travel, or the Atreides stranglehold on the guild. The enemies of the Atreides weren't focusing on building their militaries so much as they were focusing on undermining the Atreides dynasty and splitting them from the Fremen.


Farad'n's face darkened. "Beware my claws, cousin. I well know my Sardaukar
would fall in time before your Fremen. But we'd wound you sorely, and there are
jackals waiting to pick off the weak."
"I will use you well, that I promise," Leto said.

~CoD

Not only that, Imerial Fremen were fighting Desert Fremen at the time as well.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 08 Sep 2011 15:16

The latter fact is more important then the former. The split between Fremen directly threatens Atreides control of the Imperium. The Sardaukar legion is a distraction by comparison.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2011 15:31

My point was, the reason Leto wanted the Sardaukar was to keep them from depleting his Fremen.

BTW, your reference to "one legion" of Sardaukar must refer to the one legion he was putting through landing maneuvers on Salusa Secundus in DM. I don't think that means that was the ONLY legion left, there would have had to have been more for Leto to consider them a threat to the Fremen.

"Very good, m'Lord." Stilgar produced another folder, cleared his throat.
"The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his
legions through landing maneuvers."
Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse
throbbed at her neck.
"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one
legion is nothing more than a toy?"
"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of
slitted eyes.
"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

~DM

Maybe it was the only Legion Shaddam had control of on SS.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Sep 2011 15:38

Freakzilla wrote:My point was, the reason Leto wanted the Sardaukar was to keep them from depleting his Fremen.

BTW, your reference to "one legion" of Sardaukar must refer to the one legion he was putting through landing maneuvers on Salusa Secundus in DM. I don't think that means that was the ONLY legion left, there would have had to have been more for Leto to consider them a threat to the Fremen.

"Very good, m'Lord." Stilgar produced another folder, cleared his throat.
"The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his
legions through landing maneuvers."
Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse
throbbed at her neck.
"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one
legion is nothing more than a toy?"
"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of
slitted eyes.
"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

~DM

Maybe it was the only Legion Shaddam had control of on SS.



Either way, I think I see an FH typo on there, he writes legions, and then says it's just 1.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2011 15:39

Yeah, I noticed that too. I blame the publisher.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 08 Sep 2011 20:17

Shaddam was exiled to Salusa Secundus with only one legion of Sardaukar left to him. Do you seriously think Paul would strip him of his throne, his wealth, his power, his title, and leave Shaddam in control of his armies?

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Sep 2011 20:45

I'm inclined to think there was only the single legion, based up that same logic and the text.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2011 08:11

So, you're telling me that nine years later that one legion has grown to be a threat to Leto II's Imperial Fremen?
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 10:21

23 years actually.

14 years of Paul's rule and 9 of Alia's means the Fremen have spent nearly an entire generation on the newer, friendlier, Imperial Dune. Paul's terraforming efforts mean the harsh environment, and the discipline necessary to survive in that environment, are now a thing of the past. The elite veterans of the Jihad are no longer in Atreides service. Lots of the Fremen are either wounded war vets or simply too old. All the young, strong, potential recruits and front line fighters have grown up the pampered Praetorians of House Atreides. The religion of Muad'Dib has gone from an energetic new faith to the status quo religion, complete with a religious bureaucracy and Fremen like Korba who were willing to kill their own Messiah if it meant having a martyr they could control. They simply aren't the hard, strong, frontier folk that swept the universe by storm anymore.

Remember, Alia has disbanded the Fedaykin by this point. She's relying less on military power and more on religion and the civil service. The way I see it, the Fremen have degenerated to the point where a top of the line Sardaukar legion is actually a threat. Sure they could kill it, but they couldn't just crush them in one decisive battle that convinces the rest of the Landsraad that resistance is useless. If the Great Houses see how the once invincible Fremen struggled with one Legion, they might get it into their heads to raise their forces again and try unseating the Tyrant. By this time the Atreides were too intertwined in Imperial politics to carry out Paul's "Fuck with me and I destroy the Spice" threat. Besides, no spice would derail Leto's Golden Path.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2011 11:16

At the point the Council was discussing Shaddam's Sardaukar Maneuvers Paul had already reigned for 12 years and the Jihad was winding down.

From that time unlit Leto ascended was nine years and the terraforming had just begun albeit at an advanced rate.

Regardless of the degredation of the Fremen, both Leto and Farad'n consent to the fact that the Sardaukar would eventually be defeated by the Fremen weakening them enough for the rest of the Landsraad to pick them off.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 12:47

Why would the rest of the Landsraad turn on House Corrino? They're has beens by this point, and their only planet produces nothing valuable. It seems more likely that the Landsraad would want to avenge themselves on House Atreides.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2011 13:06

Setzer wrote:Why would the rest of the Landsraad turn on House Corrino? They're has beens by this point, and their only planet produces nothing valuable. It seems more likely that the Landsraad would want to avenge themselves on House Atreides.


I wasn't suggesting that.

What I'm saying is, once House Atreides became the Ruling House, House Corrino became part of the Landsraad. The other Great Houses might not side FOR House Corrino but they would be happy to pick off what was left of the Fremen afterwards.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 13:14

Freakzilla wrote:
Setzer wrote:Why would the rest of the Landsraad turn on House Corrino? They're has beens by this point, and their only planet produces nothing valuable. It seems more likely that the Landsraad would want to avenge themselves on House Atreides.


I wasn't suggesting that.

What I'm saying is, once House Atreides became the Ruling House, House Corrino became part of the Landsraad. The other Great Houses might not side FOR House Corrino but they would be happy to pick off what was left of the Fremen afterwards.


I'm pretty sure House Corrino was subsumed into House Atreides officially. Paul wed Irulan to ascend the throne and unite the Houses of the Landsraad. It's not like he kicked out the Corrinos and replaced them with Atreides. He didn't so much replace the existing power structure as he did augment it and take it over. Since Paul is the Emperor and the son in law of the previous Emperor, he should be able to speak for both Atreides and Corrino.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2011 13:26

Setzer wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Setzer wrote:Why would the rest of the Landsraad turn on House Corrino? They're has beens by this point, and their only planet produces nothing valuable. It seems more likely that the Landsraad would want to avenge themselves on House Atreides.


I wasn't suggesting that.

What I'm saying is, once House Atreides became the Ruling House, House Corrino became part of the Landsraad. The other Great Houses might not side FOR House Corrino but they would be happy to pick off what was left of the Fremen afterwards.


I'm pretty sure House Corrino was subsumed into House Atreides officially. Paul wed Irulan to ascend the throne and unite the Houses of the Landsraad. It's not like he kicked out the Corrinos and replaced them with Atreides. He didn't so much replace the existing power structure as he did augment it and take it over. Since Paul is the Emperor and the son in law of the previous Emperor, he should be able to speak for both Atreides and Corrino.


Tell that to Princess Wensicia and Prince Farad'n. House Corrino remained intact and in possession of Salusa Secundus, at least. Probably Kaitan, too.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 13:46

Shaddam's children all joined him in exile, with the exception of Irulan. As for Kaitain, I repeat my earlier statement. Paul fleeced Shaddam for everything he had. Why would he leave him in control of the Imperium's former capital, when Paul very clearly rules from Arrakis? Leaving House Corrino in control of a prison planet that's been turned into a garden world means you have a safe place to exile the former Emperor to. Leaving House Corrino in charge of the Imperial Capital world lets them form a power base to rival his own, and I can't imagine Paul tolerating that for an instant. I checked my PDFs of the first three books, and the word Kaitain never appears except once in the glossary, so I doubt the Corrinos still have it..

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Sep 2011 13:55

I would be inclined to think Paul would have taken Kaitan from them too. I can't think why he would have left it with them other than some convoluted political reason, but if he stripped them of everything else AND exiled them to a prison planet... doesn't seem right to me.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 14:11

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I would be inclined to think Paul would have taken Kaitan from them too. I can't think why he would have left it with them other than some convoluted political reason, but if he stripped them of everything else AND exiled them to a prison planet... doesn't seem right to me.


This isn't a matter of right and wrong, it's about revenge. Paul has beaten the Emperor and the Sardaukar and he's going to take him for everything they've got. I imagine the negotiations went something like this:

SHADDAM: I'm to give up all my CHOAM holdings as Irulan's dowry?
PAUL: Yes
SHADDAM: That's hardly right, one should be gracious in victory-
PAUL: I'll destroy the Spice if you don't comply.
REVEREND MOTHER: Better do it your majesty.
SHADDAM: But-
GUILD REPRESENTATIVE: Do it or live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier!
SHADDAM: *Sigh.* Alright. But I can at least retire to my estates on Kaitain?
PAUL: No, I'm taking Kaitan too. Your ass is going to rot on Salusa Secundus.
SHADDAM: But-
PAUL: I. Will. Destroy. The. Spice.
REVEREND MOTHER: The Emperor agrees.
SHADDAM: Oh Alright. I'll take my Sardaukar legions and-
PAUL: Legion.
SHADDAM: What?
PAUL: Legion. Singular. As in "You are permitted one Sardaukar Legion and nothing more."
SHADDAM: But I have fifty legions! Led by honored warriors, combat companions, battle forged friends from my days as their field commander!
PAUL: Spice. Destroy it. I will.
GUILD: He agrees. The Sardaukar will be reduced to an honor guard of One legion to join you in exile.
SHADDAM: (thinking) Oh what the hell. Salusa Secundus is almost as harsh as Arrakis. I can retrain the Sardaukar and recruit new legions. Kick out all the parasites and ass licking assistants and make the Sardaukar an army to be feared again! I can be back on top in no time!
PAUL: I'm also going to terraform SS so it's not such a harsh world. I feel it only fair to give you some comfort in exile.
SHADDAM: FUUUUCCCKK!!!!!!
GUILD& RM: His majesty thanks you and agrees whole heartedly.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2011 14:13

They idea behind killing the twins in CoD was to put Farad'n, who would have been legaly in-line, on the throne. So all hope for House Corrino was not lost.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Sep 2011 14:15

Setzer wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I would be inclined to think Paul would have taken Kaitan from them too. I can't think why he would have left it with them other than some convoluted political reason, but if he stripped them of everything else AND exiled them to a prison planet... doesn't seem right to me.


This isn't a matter of right and wrong, it's about revenge.


When I said "right" there it was right as in "correct" not right as in "moral".

This language is fantastic eh?
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Sep 2011 14:16

Freakzilla wrote:They idea behind killing the twins in CoD was to put Farad'n, who would have been legaly in-line, on the throne. So all hope for House Corrino was not lost.


They were definitely still royalty, I imagine their exile and being stripped of planets, forces etc was more of an off the books thing than an actual legal thing necessarily.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Setzer » 09 Sep 2011 14:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Setzer wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I would be inclined to think Paul would have taken Kaitan from them too. I can't think why he would have left it with them other than some convoluted political reason, but if he stripped them of everything else AND exiled them to a prison planet... doesn't seem right to me.


This isn't a matter of right and wrong, it's about revenge.


When I said "right" there it was right as in "correct" not right as in "moral".

This language is fantastic eh?


Ah. The way I see it, Paul stripped Shaddam of everything, sent all the extraneous Corrinos into exile, and kept a close watch on the place of exile. Kind of like Tupile, except you don't have the guild keeping your enemies out.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Anathema » 02 Jan 2013 20:52

Hi Sandchigger, luv your avatar. lolz

Hi y'all!

Comparing the landsraad to "real institutions", the English/UK-ish parliament used to be a gathering of people that met occasionally in order to advise the king. Later on, they got uppity and decided that they were the representatives of the land or whatever, and passed laws that a "parliament" had to be convened every couple of years or so, with smaller intervals as time progressed, until modern times when parliament was permanently in session.

Other than that they weren't that important originally, one of the reasons that they didn't meat that frequently would have been that it was unpractical to travel to Westminster for every other issue. Which means basically two explanations for the question in the OP:
- the "old empire" in Dune is very much an absolute monarchy; the emperor has to convene a "Landsraad meeting" every three-four years to appease the great houses but that's it
- space travel is expensive, and makes it unpractical for the rank-and-file members of the Landsraad to travel for every other issue.

(and yes, I do realize the original post is almost five years old)

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Jan 2013 21:24

It doesn't matter how old th op is.
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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Anathema » 02 Jan 2013 21:35

I expected so, but I'm drunk so that doen'st count for much.

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Re: Meetings of the Landsraad

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Jan 2013 21:43

Probably not as drunk as me... so that's no excuse.
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