Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

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Slugger
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Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Slugger » 21 Oct 2009 19:51

Anirul produced only daughters, per the Bene Gesserit's instructions. So, why was Shaddam content with only daughters, knowing that he would require a male as the Imperial heir? Why didn't he ever take on concubines in an attempt to produce a son?

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2009 20:02

When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.
He blamed
the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
ancestry.

~Dune-"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Slugger » 21 Oct 2009 20:10

Well, that explains it. Sorry, I missed that quote.

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2009 20:19

Slugger wrote:Well, that explains it. Sorry, I missed that quote.


Don't be sorry, that's what we're here for. :D
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2009 20:38

Since we're on the topic, I'd like to know what everyone thinks the bit I underlined means.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Redstar » 21 Oct 2009 21:17

Shaddamn-BG alliance to put him on the thrown over a birthright sibling in exchange for a greater BG influence?

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Slugger » 21 Oct 2009 22:46

Well, if the speculations that Shaddam and Fenring eliminated Elrood IX were true, then perhaps the BG used this as blackmail against him?

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Ampoliros » 22 Oct 2009 00:36

Most likely the BG were planning on marrying an Imprinted noble into the Royal Family. It's possible that one of the daughters might have been made into an Empress, but somehow I doubt that the faufreluch (i can never spell that from memory...) system allowed female heads of state because the Bene Gesseritt would quickly dominate that role. (Simply, Frank wanted the BG to stay in the background, and if matriarchy was allowed that would cause problems since every family would prefer to have a RM at the head.)

Its never mentioned iirc but I assumed that BG was the "Maternal" side of the political tripod and the Guild was "Paternal" (basically males only) with the Landsraad essentially Paternal and CHAOM being fairly open.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2009 06:47

Ampoliros wrote:Most likely the BG were planning on marrying an Imprinted noble into the Royal Family.


That's what I think, they were setting up a marriage for the KH.

This makes me wonder...

If they had a deal to put a BG on the throne, did the nobility know about the BG breeding program and anticipated "messiah"? Were there male BG? I guess there were since RM Mohiam said "they tried and died" but I wouldn't expect that to be common knowledge. I guess a male could go through the training up to The Agony, but they wouldn't be able to count on their loyalty.

:think:
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Lundse » 22 Oct 2009 10:08

Freakzilla wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:Most likely the BG were planning on marrying an Imprinted noble into the Royal Family.


That's what I think, they were setting up a marriage for the KH.


I agree. And the BG had quite a few years to insinuate themselves into the royal household - supplying a truthseer for the emperor might just be enough in itself to give them some power over who the emperor chose as an heir.
I'm guessing the BG were a main reason the empire did stay as stable as it did for so long, with the Corrinos at the helm...


Freakzilla wrote:Were there male BG? I guess there were since RM Mohiam said "they tried and died" but I wouldn't expect that to be common knowledge. I guess a male could go through the training up to The Agony, but they wouldn't be able to count on their loyalty.


I think those were far between, and probably kept on Wallach IX. They might have been loyal, but I doubt the BG were betting the farm on that and using them for anything more than experiments in training. Or possibly training them without their knowledge of what that training was for and for whom - like Paul being pre-trained as a mentat.

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 22 Oct 2009 11:18

I think that it is plausible that the BG originally wanted to place a Harkonnen on the throne that was wed to an Atreides, so that in another generation they would have the KH sitting on the throne, completely loyal to them. After Jessica disobeyed them by having Paul, they would have been happy to place him on the throne, provided he were determined to be controllable.

For it to fit into the Feudal model that FH used, the male BG would have to be of the royal bloodline. How aware was Shaddam of the close blood ties between Harkonnen and Atreides?

BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2009 11:35

redbugpest wrote:I think that it is plausible that the BG originally wanted to place a Harkonnen on the throne that was wed to an Atreides, so that in another generation they would have the KH sitting on the throne, completely loyal to them. After Jessica disobeyed them by having Paul, they would have been happy to place him on the throne, provided he were determined to be controllable.

For it to fit into the Feudal model that FH used, the male BG would have to be of the royal bloodline. How aware was Shaddam of the close blood ties between Harkonnen and Atreides?

BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....


The Harkonnens were not royalty.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 22 Oct 2009 11:51

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I think that it is plausible that the BG originally wanted to place a Harkonnen on the throne that was wed to an Atreides, so that in another generation they would have the KH sitting on the throne, completely loyal to them. After Jessica disobeyed them by having Paul, they would have been happy to place him on the throne, provided he were determined to be controllable.

For it to fit into the Feudal model that FH used, the male BG would have to be of the royal bloodline. How aware was Shaddam of the close blood ties between Harkonnen and Atreides?

BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....


The Harkonnens were not royalty.


Paul's mingled blood (or the daughter that Jessica should have had) would have been enough to satisfy the requirements of succession.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby insidiom » 22 Oct 2009 12:35

Freakzilla wrote:When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.

...
I saw then that he had been aroused to this
passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
ancestry.

~Dune-"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan

--
i think it means that the emperor made a deal with the BG to place him on the throne (why, i dunno), and
by that, he knew he was to provide blood to the BG to marry and produce a true heir (maybe he didnt); which frustrated
him since he wouldnt have control over the heir. power now, no power later.

also, because he was related to the duke (and knew the duke was of the stuff to make an emperor) i think that
he saw himself in leto's place at the hands of nobles/underlings at the time of his death. which, i would imagine,
in the feudal system is less than a perfect way to go. that great people should die great deaths. (this might be prescience
or just having a keen mind)

it seems like the above passage hints that
he was aware that things were going on around him and
had no way to intervene/alter; that he was ultimately a tool and expendable.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Nekhrun » 22 Oct 2009 13:17

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I think that it is plausible that the BG originally wanted to place a Harkonnen on the throne that was wed to an Atreides, so that in another generation they would have the KH sitting on the throne, completely loyal to them. After Jessica disobeyed them by having Paul, they would have been happy to place him on the throne, provided he were determined to be controllable.

For it to fit into the Feudal model that FH used, the male BG would have to be of the royal bloodline. How aware was Shaddam of the close blood ties between Harkonnen and Atreides?

BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....


The Harkonnens were not royalty.


Paul's mingled blood (or the daughter that Jessica should have had) would have been enough to satisfy the requirements of succession.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Girl Paul and Feyd would've produced a son which would have probably been paired with one of Shaddam's daughters. Then their off-spring would've continued the royal line.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2009 13:27

I like to call her "Paulette".
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Nekhrun » 22 Oct 2009 13:35

Freakzilla wrote:I like to call her "Paulette".

I like it. For some reason in my head it's always Girl-Paul.

I suppose Paula would work as well.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 22 Oct 2009 13:51

I don't think Shaddam would have waited (or would have lived long enough) for the brat to be old enough to marry one of his daughters. Besides, his daughters would be old women by then.


EDIT TO REPLACE MISSING TEXT:

BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....
Last edited by redbugpest on 23 Oct 2009 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2009 14:01

redbugpest wrote:I don't think Shaddam would have waited (or would have lived long enough) for the brat to be old enough to marry one of his daughters. Besides, his daughters would be old women by then.


You must have missed the bit about the geriatric properties of the spice. :roll:
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Lundse » 22 Oct 2009 15:34

If this post seems not to fit in the thread, I apologize - redbugpest edited his last post to remove the quote below. Until I know whether this constitutes a retraction, I'll keep this post hanging...
Later note: redbugpest says he was not the one to remove the quote. I see no reason to distrust him on this, so do no take the above note as a claim that he did - it was just my initial assumption... (It certainly wasn't a retraction :-) )

redbugpest wrote:BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....


How is it wrong? Have you responded to the schizo-Alia thing? The one where you claim that Alia could be thinking about "a mentat-like AI which is trustworthy". This is the passage where you suggested this be the case, BTW, in case you forgot:
The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.

Notice how, for your explanation of Alia thinking about some future "other kind of machine than those of the jihad", she would have to go from thinking about the past, then the future, then the past and back to the future (pun not intended)! She must be getting dizzy, hu?

Or maybe you have responded regarding Paul's birthplace? How "this will be your first time off-planet" does not mean exactly that?

No?

The "sandworms forming ... spice in the cargo hold" not meaning that the sandworms were producing spice?

Not that one either, hu?

How long has it been now?

I'll count you as having fled these discussions until you prove me wrong and answer one of them. Anyone can check up on the fact that you stopped responding when your position was in trouble, so claiming otherwise makes you look a bit silly. But do give me a heads-up-PM if you ever return to one of them...
Last edited by Lundse on 23 Oct 2009 16:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Nekhrun » 22 Oct 2009 17:05

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I don't think Shaddam would have waited (or would have lived long enough) for the brat to be old enough to marry one of his daughters. Besides, his daughters would be old women by then.


You must have missed the bit about the geriatric properties of the spice. :roll:

Exactly, why would he care when he could've waited another hundred or so years? Any potential suitor wouldv'e meant a danger to his person. A BG certainly would've had no problem waiting for the right genetic combination. I've seen plenty of age differences between couples. Also, if you look at your buddy's own book isn't Mohaim a little old to be having a kid? No, because she's a BG and they exist to serve.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 23 Oct 2009 14:09

Lundse wrote:If this post seems not to fit in the thread, I apologize - redbugpest edited his last post to remove the quote below. Until I know whether this constitutes a retraction, I'll keep this post hanging...


redbugpest wrote:BTW Lundse, You signature is wrong - but if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep thinking that....


How is it wrong? Have you responded to the schizo-Alia thing? The one where you claim that Alia could be thinking about "a mentat-like AI which is trustworthy". This is the passage where you suggested this be the case, BTW, in case you forgot:
The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.

Notice how, for your explanation of Alia thinking about some future "other kind of machine than those of the jihad", she would have to go from thinking about the past, then the future, then the past and back to the future (pun not intended)! She must be getting dizzy, hu?

Or maybe you have responded regarding Paul's birthplace? How "this will be your first time off-planet" does not mean exactly that?

No?

The "sandworms forming ... spice in the cargo hold" not meaning that the sandworms were producing spice?

Not that one either, hu?

How long has it been now?

I'll count you as having fled these discussions until you prove me wrong and answer one of them. Anyone can check up on the fact that you stopped responding when your position was in trouble, so claiming otherwise makes you look a bit silly. But do give me a heads-up-PM if you ever return to one of them...


Interesting! I did not edit my previous post and remove that.... Must have been a moderator.

Check your facts. I have restated my position on Paul, and pointed that out to you more than once. Why do you continue to insist that I have not addressed that?

The Alia thing boils down to a OM conversation, I'll start a thread for that later this weekend (I want to go through the OM thread already here before posting my view)

The rest will wait until I have more time - you seem to think that answering YOUR questions should be the most important thing going on in my life, but in reality it is not even close to the top right now.

So like I said, if it makes you feel better to put me on your little list in your sig, have at it. But that doesn't make it true....just childish.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2009 14:12

redbugpest wrote:Interesting! I did not edit my previous post and remove that.... Must have been a moderator.


I seriously doubt it. It would have had to have been me or Omphalos. We don't edit posts.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 23 Oct 2009 15:02

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I don't think Shaddam would have waited (or would have lived long enough) for the brat to be old enough to marry one of his daughters. Besides, his daughters would be old women by then.


You must have missed the bit about the geriatric properties of the spice. :roll:

Exactly, why would he care when he could've waited another hundred or so years? Any potential suitor wouldv'e meant a danger to his person. A BG certainly would've had no problem waiting for the right genetic combination. I've seen plenty of age differences between couples. Also, if you look at your buddy's own book isn't Mohaim a little old to be having a kid? No, because she's a BG and they exist to serve.


You make a good point about his ability to wait another 100 years. I was not factoring in the effect of spice on his lifespan.
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby redbugpest » 23 Oct 2009 15:03

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Interesting! I did not edit my previous post and remove that.... Must have been a moderator.


I seriously doubt it. It would have had to have been me or Omphalos. We don't edit posts.


Well, I am sure I did not remove it.

No matter - I just added it back.
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