Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

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Lundse
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Lundse » 23 Oct 2009 16:00

redbugpest wrote:Check your facts. I have restated my position on Paul, and pointed that out to you more than once. Why do you continue to insist that I have not addressed that?


I am really sorry if I got this wrong, but maybe there is a misunderstanding here...
I am not looking for you to "restate your position". I am looking for you to _argue for your position_! Did you really do this? Where?
(The question I asked was re. the Duke Leto quote - how does that fit into a world in which Paul left Caladan several times? Is the Duke perhaps retarded in your reading of Dune?)


redbugpest wrote:The Alia thing boils down to a OM conversation, I'll start a thread for that later this weekend (I want to go through the OM thread already here before posting my view)


You said this before. Points will be awarded when you actually do. Since you are focusing on OH, I presume you will go the Arnoldo-route on this one - anything from OH is suspect. I will ask you the same thing I asked him and Byron - when do we know if it is suspect? Whenever KJA says so?
(This, incidently, was about where Arnoldo ran away).


redbugpest wrote:The rest will wait until I have more time...


But you didn't really address any of them just now - you are aware this, right?


redbugpest wrote:...you seem to think that answering YOUR questions should be the most important thing going on in my life, but in reality it is not even close to the top right now.

So like I said, if it makes you feel better to put me on your little list in your sig, have at it. But that doesn't make it true....just childish.


Ahh... A bit of personal attacks and lies about me to finish it off.

I don't think answering my questions is or should be important to you. Really. And I never said so, and you are misrepresenting me, yada, yada.
But _you_ claimed that you can and will defend your position that FH and KJA's work can, by some stretch of the imagination, be about the same universe! You then started to do so, and, like everyone else, stopped. I am calling attention to this fact.

So you can say "it's not important to me right now/anymore" all you want. You still count as another KJA fan who wasn't able to answer simple questions (such as how "forming spice" does not mean producing it).


The list in my sig is true, to the best of my knowledge. Otherwise, there'd be no point to it. If you, or anyone else, can show how it is wrong, or return to the discussion, I will of course remove any wrongful entries.

It may be childish to you, but I happen to believe in rational discourse. I want you guys to defend your position, and I think it speaks volumes that you won't. So I am going to keep mentioning it. And you are probably going to keep calling it, and me, names while claiming my insistence on rational debate is some kind of megalomania. So who is the fucking child here?

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inhuien
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby inhuien » 24 Oct 2009 06:36

redbugpest wrote:You make a good point about his ability to wait another 100 years. I was not factoring in the effect of spice on his lifespan.
How could you do that and still feel able to comment on anything relating to Dune. If that facet of the Duniverse is not ingrained almost to the level of the instinctual then save my bandwidth and stop posting or think first. There is a third option, why not open your mind and learn something.
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Omphalos
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Omphalos » 24 Oct 2009 21:34

Pestie wrote:Interesting! I did not edit my previous post and remove that.... Must have been a moderator.


Without noting a change? Fat fucking chance.

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Hunchback Jack
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Hunchback Jack » 18 Nov 2009 13:40

Freakzilla wrote:Since we're on the topic, I'd like to know what everyone thinks the bit I underlined means.


The "Bene Gesserit" mentioned is Irulan, I think it's clear. There's a passage at the end of Dune when Paul confronts Shaddam that mentions that Irulan was groomed by the BG as the heir, as part of that agreement. But what did Shaddam get in return? Was a female heir not considered legitimate?

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Ziggy
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Ziggy » 18 Jan 2010 19:44

Let me begin by saying sorry in advance if I'm coming across as the irritating new guy who resurrects old threads but hey, you got some bloody good discussions going on here. Just let me know if I'm not catching on with the protocol around here. I just wanted to ask if anyone remembers any other information about this compact, in patricular its forced nature? It's clear that Shaddam harbours a lot of bitterness and resentment towards the BG. I can't recall anything other than that one line but there are some around here who seem able to pull out the appropriate quote whenever needed! Or indeed anyone care to speculate? Blackmail perhaps? The BG covering up for Shaddam's nefarious deeds in return for pushing their own interests?

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lotek
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby lotek » 18 Jan 2010 20:25

could it be they were trying to avoid a "succession War of Assassins", since their plan was to mate the Harkonnen and Atreides heir when they planned on an Atreides daughter?

Sorry if my genealogy is a bit rusty but wasn't Leto somewhere in the potential candidates through the "distaff side" and also thanks to his popularity in the Lansraad?

In the event of the BG's breeding plan coming to final fruition, the Kwisatz Haderach born of "Paulette" and Feyd-Rautha would have been a much more powerful tool to wield if he could sit on the Imperial Throne, so preventing Shaddam of having an heir would be the most obvious thing to do for the BG.

In turn, Shaddam must have understood if not the deep reason for this interdiction, at least the fact that his line was being pushed away from power.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

Ziggy
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Ziggy » 18 Jan 2010 20:45

I get the BG motives for increasing their influence in the Imperium in order to maintain stability, such as it was at the time, but remain curious as to the means of bending Shaddam to their will? I always got the impession that Shaddam was largey unaware of the ultimate goal of the breeding program. I think you are right about Shaddam being aware of the decline of the Corrino line, and lacking the means to prevent it. He is portrayed at times as being a caged figure, trapped in a destiny not of his own making. I always enjoyed Frank's way of adding more depth to the antagonists of his tales and not resorting to the lazy comic book villains.

Your geneology is correct sir and Shaddam indicates that given different circustances Leto may well have married into the Royal line.

My father, the Padishah Emperor, took me by the hand one day and I sensed in the
ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He led me down the Hall of
Portraits to the ego-likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides. I marked the strong
resemblance between them--my father and this man in the portrait--both with
thin, elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold eyes. "Princessdaughter,"
my father said, "I would that you'd been older when it came time for
this man to choose a woman." My father was 71 at the time and looking no older
than the man in the portrait, and I was but 14, yet I remember deducing in that
instant that my father secretly wished the Duke had been his son, and disliked
the political necessities that made them enemies.
-"In My Father's House" by the Princess Irulan

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lotek
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby lotek » 18 Jan 2010 21:15

well if Shaddam being who he was could not have ignored the implications of his wife bearing only daughters, wether he knew or not of the Breeding Program is irrelevant(I doubt he would though, the BG are not known for giving away their secrets even to the Emperor).
And since his wife was BG too(she was wasn't she?), the conclusion is pretty obvious :)
(being the Emperor of the Known Universe and seeing your wife betray you for higher loyalties you don't fully understand would not go down so well)

"plans within plans" was Dune's underlying motto, and maybe weakening the ruling Emperor served the higher purpose that set the Atreides on the road towards the Golden Path?
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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inhuien
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby inhuien » 19 Jan 2010 10:35

lotek wrote:"plans within plans" was Dune's underlying motto, and maybe weakening the ruling Emperor served the higher purpose that set the Atreides on the road towards the Golden Path?

Really? I've always thought it was Survival of the Fittest.
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lotek
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby lotek » 19 Jan 2010 11:07

well I should have said that it was what made the biggest impression on me, a bit like the constant doubt necessary to philosophical thinking, it forces you to always question assumptions and look for deeper meaning...

Of course one could see almost anything in a story as complex as Dune :)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

A Little Galach
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby A Little Galach » 06 Apr 2010 16:38

Ziggy wrote:Let me begin by saying sorry in advance if I'm coming across as the irritating new guy who resurrects old threads but hey, you got some bloody good discussions going on here. Just let me know if I'm not catching on with the protocol around here. I just wanted to ask if anyone remembers any other information about this compact, in patricular its forced nature? It's clear that Shaddam harbours a lot of bitterness and resentment towards the BG. I can't recall anything other than that one line but there are some around here who seem able to pull out the appropriate quote whenever needed! Or indeed anyone care to speculate? Blackmail perhaps? The BG covering up for Shaddam's nefarious deeds in return for pushing their own interests?


Hello fellow irritating new guy!

I think the times that KJA & BH actually follow FH's notes are pretty evident. The prequel story of how Shaddam rose to power through patricide smells to me like something Frank came up with, and the pact that is depicted and that you allude to above is what Frank based his story on. It's way too clever for KJA to cook up. Dune alludes to it, in Irulan's passage and in the Appendix when they talk about the way Shaddam's daddy died and Fenring's role in it.

I think the extrapolation that they had to kill Elrood in order to get Ix so the Tlexiau could make fake spice in an axotyl tank that is discovered but never told to anyone is a KJA/BH creation.

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Freakzilla
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Apr 2010 16:52

I encourage the use of old topics.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Apr 2010 18:00

Yeah, this isn't one of those forums that frown on posting in old threads - here they remain open forever to be added on to.
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A Little Galach
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby A Little Galach » 06 Apr 2010 20:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yeah, this isn't one of those forums that frown on posting in old threads - here they remain open forever to be added on to.

Consider them added on to.

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Entik » 24 Jun 2010 09:35

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in Dune that it was some kind of an agreement between the Guild and the BG over the succession of the Imperial House... maybe someone could paste the exact quote...

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2010 09:38

When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.
He blamed
the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
ancestry.

-"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

Entik
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Entik » 24 Jun 2010 09:45

Ziggy wrote:He is portrayed at times as being a caged figure, trapped in a destiny not of his own making. I always enjoyed Frank's way of adding more depth to the antagonists of his tales and not resorting to the lazy comic book villains.


Yeah... which makes the way they are portrayed in the prequels (Shaddam and Fenring particularly) even more frustrating...

Entik
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Entik » 24 Jun 2010 10:01

Freakzilla wrote:When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.
He blamed
the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
ancestry.

-"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan



Nah... I found it... it's in another quote by Irulan... the chapter just after the one where Gurney and other Atreides rally the mercenaries

do you guys have all the books on file ?

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Freakzilla
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2010 11:28

Entik wrote:do you guys have all the books on file ?


Yes
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby SandChigger » 24 Jun 2010 11:42

You mean... YOU DON'T?! :shock:

SHUN HIM!!! :angry-screaming:


Just kidding! :lol:

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lotek
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby lotek » 24 Jun 2010 11:56

Entik wrote:do you guys have all the books on file ?


if you want them I can send you the links for all Dune pdf's
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Serkanner
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Serkanner » 24 Jun 2010 13:12

Entik wrote:
do you guys have all the books on file ?


HERE!
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and wrote a Dune Novel."

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lotek
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby lotek » 24 Jun 2010 13:45

or alternatively :mrgreen:
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Jun 2010 06:34

Serkanner wrote:
Entik wrote:
do you guys have all the books on file ?


HERE!


Thanks. :D
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Entik
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Re: Shaddam's Heir Dilemna

Postby Entik » 26 Jun 2010 09:46

thanks a lot Serkanner!


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