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    Sardaukar?

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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Serkanner » 14 Sep 2011 10:34

    Setzer wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Maybe he's thinking of the breeding them on SS angle. Keep the females on SS to breed, kinda like the BT.


    According to the Dune Encyclopedia, that's how the Sardaukar women were treated. They were kept out of battle and made babies.


    But the DE is not canon.

    My question was justwhat it said. I wondered if there was any mentioning of Sardaukar women in the novels because I don't remember it does. I also don't know of any mentioning of women at all on SS so I don't draw any conclusions into the direction that there were any. So, no mention of any women, so no babies.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2011 10:44

    We can't assume there weren't women because they weren't mentioned. (How's that Nebby? :P )

    I think the Sardaukar had to be a combination of surviving prisoners and people born there. After all, the Atreides seem to have gotten the idea of using the Fremen from the Sardaukar.

    I think of SS kind of like Austrailia. It started out as a prison colony then developed its own population.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Serkanner » 14 Sep 2011 10:48

    Freakzilla wrote:We can't assume there weren't women because they weren't mentioned. (How's that Nebby? :P )

    I think the Sardaukar had to be a combination of surviving prisoners and people born there. After all, the Atreides seem to have gotten the idea of using the Fremen from the Sardaukar.

    I think of SS kind of like Austrailia. It started out as a prison colony then developed its own population.


    I agree. It is very likely, but not supported by the texts however.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2011 10:50

    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:We can't assume there weren't women because they weren't mentioned. (How's that Nebby? :P )

    I think the Sardaukar had to be a combination of surviving prisoners and people born there. After all, the Atreides seem to have gotten the idea of using the Fremen from the Sardaukar.

    I think of SS kind of like Austrailia. It started out as a prison colony then developed its own population.


    I agree. It is very likely, but not supported by the texts however.


    Yeah, That's why I said "I think".

    Review the chapter in Dune where Hawat discusses the Sardaukar with the Baron. There may be something there.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby SandRider » 14 Sep 2011 15:53

    you know, I'm thinking of taking the position that the DE is now canon ...
    treating the entire thing the way we treat the other "in-universe texts" Frank quotes -
    unless directly contradicting something in the narrative (for an obvious purpose),
    I don't see a problem with using the "facts & history" presented in the DE ....

    I think Frank's "reservations" about the DE most likely centered on the material
    about the Butlerian Jihad - at the time, he was probably thinking about future
    Dune books and "keeping that door open"; I don't think being dead in a few
    years ever crossed his mind ...
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Setzer » 14 Sep 2011 15:56

    My approach is that the Dune Encyclopedia is canon except in the areas where it doesn't comply with Herbert's works. Since it corresponds with Herbert's work far better then the cash cow novels, I don't think there will be anything wrong with that.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Sep 2011 17:51

    As the first ' Dune fan,'' I give this encyclopedia
    my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still
    to be explored as the Chronicles unfold.

    Frank Herbert
    Port Townsend, WA
    November, 1983


    It may not be canon, but hey...
    I bring nothing to the table.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Sep 2011 17:52

    I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval...
    I bring nothing to the table.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Sep 2011 17:52

    although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold.
    I bring nothing to the table.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 17:58

    I consider it quasi-canon except where contradicted by the original novels. The rest of it isn't ruled out immediately just for being in the DE, but neither do I accept any of it as solid canon, simply because it's an in-universe text.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Sep 2011 18:13

    I know it's pointless to speculate, but I wonder what Mr. Herbert would have thought of the new books?
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2011 18:17

    JustSomeGuy wrote:I know it's pointless to speculate, but I wonder what Mr. Herbert would have thought of the new books?


    Do you really wonder?!
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 14 Sep 2011 18:22

    Yeah... I wonder how disappointed he would feel. Angry, maybe? It's more along those lines.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2011 18:29

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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby merkin muffley » 14 Sep 2011 23:53

    Freakzilla wrote:We can't assume there weren't women because they weren't mentioned. (How's that Nebby? :P )


    NICE.

    Did you notice Scarlett Johanssen's tits, by the way?
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Nekhrun » 15 Sep 2011 09:56

    merkin muffley wrote:Did you notice Scarlett Johanssen's tits, by the way?

    Somebody get this kid some more lotion, looks like he's going to be away for a bit.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby SandChigger » 15 Sep 2011 10:35

    SandRider wrote:you know, I'm thinking of taking the position that the DE is now canon ...
    treating the entire thing the way we treat the other "in-universe texts" Frank quotes -
    unless directly contradicting something in the narrative (for an obvious purpose),
    I don't see a problem with using the "facts & history" presented in the DE ....

    Well, you have fun with that and let us know how it works out for you.

    I think Frank's "reservations" about the DE most likely centered on the material
    about the Butlerian Jihad - at the time, he was probably thinking about future
    Dune books and "keeping that door open"; I don't think being dead in a few
    years ever crossed his mind ...

    I think it's a bit more complex than that.

    There were 43 contributors to the DE, including Dr. McNelly. It's unclear how many (if any) of them had any contact with FH other than through McNelly. It would have been stupid for FH to allow himself to be bound by the details dreamed up by that many people with differing interpretations and understandings of the first three (four?) books. (McNelly wrote that they had available an advance copy of GEoD, but everyone probably didn't have ready access to it.)

    I'm willing to accept a few details from the DE that seem like something FH would have come up with and included himself (the Fremen Reverend Mothers reviving and instructing the tribes in an older form of their language; the "Oxygen Crisis" stuff, etc.) but a lot of it is just nonsense ("clam power"; the worms evolving on Arrakis after an asteroid impact; the ancient history of the BG; all the Holzmann cyborg bullshit, etc etc etc) and just as bad in its way as some of the shit squirted out by The Prodigal & Hack-for-Hire, and I refuse to grant it even quasi-canon status. :hand: :snooty: :naughty:
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Sep 2011 10:38

    merkin muffley wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:We can't assume there weren't women because they weren't mentioned. (How's that Nebby? :P )


    NICE.

    Did you notice Scarlett Johanssen's tits, by the way?


    I saw one of 'em, it's perfect!
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby SandChigger » 15 Sep 2011 11:37

    You should see the other one, then! :lol:
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby merkin muffley » 15 Sep 2011 11:56

    Nekhrun wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:Did you notice Scarlett Johanssen's tits, by the way?

    Somebody get this kid some more lotion, looks like he's going to be away for a bit.


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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby inhuien » 16 Sep 2011 12:10

    SandChigger wrote:
    SandRider wrote:you know, I'm thinking of taking the position that the DE is now canon ...
    treating the entire thing the way we treat the other "in-universe texts" Frank quotes -
    unless directly contradicting something in the narrative (for an obvious purpose),
    I don't see a problem with using the "facts & history" presented in the DE ....

    Well, you have fun with that and let us know how it works out for you.

    I think Frank's "reservations" about the DE most likely centered on the material
    about the Butlerian Jihad - at the time, he was probably thinking about future
    Dune books and "keeping that door open"; I don't think being dead in a few
    years ever crossed his mind ...

    I think it's a bit more complex than that.

    There were 43 contributors to the DE, including Dr. McNelly. It's unclear how many (if any) of them had any contact with FH other than through McNelly. It would have been stupid for FH to allow himself to be bound by the details dreamed up by that many people with differing interpretations and understandings of the first three (four?) books. (McNelly wrote that they had available an advance copy of GEoD, but everyone probably didn't have ready access to it.)

    I'm willing to accept a few details from the DE that seem like something FH would have come up with and included himself (the Fremen Reverend Mothers reviving and instructing the tribes in an older form of their language; the "Oxygen Crisis" stuff, etc.) but a lot of it is just nonsense ("clam power"; the worms evolving on Arrakis after an asteroid impact; the ancient history of the BG; all the Holzmann cyborg bullshit, etc etc etc) and just as bad in its way as some of the shit squirted out by The Prodigal & Hack-for-Hire, and I refuse to grant it even quasi-canon status. :hand: :snooty: :naughty:

    The only answer here is for our dedicated Observance Hounds to go through the DE article by article awarding them validity on virtue of their argued merits.
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby SandChigger » 16 Sep 2011 14:33

    Motion seconded!

    Please keep us apprised of your progress! :dance:
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby inhuien » 17 Sep 2011 12:16

    Ok, lets start. Aardvark, canon of not?
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2011 12:38

    Not mentioned, even once, even in McDune!

    NON-CANON!!! BURN THE NON-PROOFREADER INFIDEL! :angry-screaming:




    ;)
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    Re: Sardaukar?

    Postby Setzer » 17 Sep 2011 18:48

    Well, judging from the first book, all we have to go on is that Salusa Secundus is a prison planet that also breeds Sardaukar. No clue if there's a colony there or if it's all sustained by new convicts arriving.
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