Cultures in the duniverse

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Kensai
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Kensai » 28 Jun 2010 09:53

MrFlibble wrote:
Robspierre wrote:There is a "renaissance" period feel to the Dune universe in the first three novels.

Rob

Yes, I think both Lynch and the guy who made the miniseries tried to make the visuals of their respective works in a style evocative of the Renaissance - and with drastically different results, I should add :D


I love the art style of the movie. Didn't like tha art direction of the miniseries, just looked like plain cheap generic sci-fi to me. A lot of the sets from the seires could have passed for recycled star trek sets.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Jun 2010 11:48

SandChigger wrote:The performance of the play in House Atrocious? ;)


That is a riveting scene, in which we watch Leto's family be bored watching a play.

And how stupid is the idea that the references to the ancient ancestor Agamemnon were actually about a fucking robot. :roll:



Kensai wrote:Didn't like tha art direction of the miniseries, just looked like plain cheap generic sci-fi to me. A lot of the sets from the seires could have passed for recycled star trek sets.


I was expecting more from the miniseries because it was done by Vittorio Storaro (cinematographer: The Conformist, Last Emperor, Apocalypse Now), but it was probably more than I expected from something from the sci-fi channel. Have you seen Storaro's theories about the psychological meanings of colors? Pretty pretentious. Very interesting, and he's a genius, but p r e t t y fucking pretentious.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby TheDukester » 29 Jun 2010 12:28

Kensai wrote:I love the art style of the movie. Didn't like tha art direction of the miniseries, just looked like plain cheap generic sci-fi to me.

Take the exact opposite of all these words, and you've got how I feel.

Lynch's craptastic Dune was a mess from beginning to end and not only didn't evoke Dune for me, but actually made me laugh out loud more than most comedies do (Paul's gigantic hair, Fremen stuffing garden hoses up their noses, Sardaukar who looked like Marvel Comics rejects, "Because he is the Kwisatz Haderach!", etc., etc.)

All subjective, of course. And two very different projects: it's probably not even worth our time to try to compare a major studio release with a made-for-TV miniseries. They are different beasts.

As an added bonus, you'll never even get Dune fans to agree on the merits of the two projects, and that's a group of people who usually can agree on things.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Jun 2010 14:12

TheDukester wrote:
Kensai wrote:I love the art style of the movie. Didn't like tha art direction of the miniseries, just looked like plain cheap generic sci-fi to me.

Take the exact opposite of all these words, and you've got how I feel.


I agree, the design in the Lynch film is unnecessarily disgusting, and it seems like there was an unstoppable chain reaction of bad choices that culminated in things like the worm battle, and the 50s eggbeater ornithopter design, and Irulan's face fading in and out during the prologue, and Thufir Hawat's eyebrows... the list of bad aesthetic choices in Lynch's Dune is longer than the screenplay.

The Sci-Fi miniseries, I thought, was pretty interesting.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jun 2010 14:32

merkin muffley wrote:...Thufir Hawat's eyebrows...


Piter had the same eyebrows... and clothes. :?

The Sci-Fi miniseries, I thought, was pretty interesting.


Especially those hats. :puke:
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Kensai » 29 Jun 2010 16:06

The Saudukaur in the movie do look pretty stupid, but the ones in the miniseries look ridiculous. One of the asthetic bithces I have with both the movie and the tv series, is it too much middle easter looking Fremen? Non of the actors portraying Fremen have looked like desert dwellers, they are too caucasian. Am I the only one who envisions the Fremen as looking at least a little arabic? I mean the Fremen are Muslims, the majority of which are ethnically middleastern, but if you live on a desert planet for 10,000 years, and even if you move mostly at night and stay out of the sun during the day, then your going to be at least a little tanned. The Fremen's bodies adapted and evolved to the desert in other ways (such as slow coagulation), so its pretty safe to assume their skin must have darkend to protect against the intense sun and ultraviolet rays.

1.the melanin that produces the darker tones of human skin serves as a light filter to protect against too much UV light getting under the human skin where too much UV causes sunburn and disrupts the synthesis of precursors necessary to make human DNA; versus

2.humans need at least a minimum threshold of UV light to penetrate the epidermis to produce vitamin D, which is essential for building and maintaining the bones of the human skeleton.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Jun 2010 16:12

Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Jun 2010 17:13

Freakzilla wrote:Especially those hats. :puke:


The hats were part of Vittorio Storaro's experiments with the psychological impact of pastries on the head.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jun 2010 17:16

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Jun 2010 17:49

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?


That is messed up, being that I've heard it said that blonde hair will be bred out within the next couple hundred years anyways (and NO I haven't run the gene charts myself to confirm this, I know blonde isn't recessive, it "blends" with darker hair types as I understand it and that's why it won't keep popping up forever like red hair will). Maybe I'm talking out of my ass?

Also, my memory is shite, who had blonde hair?
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Kensai » 30 Jun 2010 08:21

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?


Wasn't that just Liet who was half caste/mixed race?

I know how to explain the Chani redhead thing, seeing as some Muslims die their hair a gingery red (I can't remember what it is called).
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Serkanner » 30 Jun 2010 10:16

Kensai wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?


Wasn't that just Liet who was half caste/mixed race?

I know how to explain the Chani redhead thing, seeing as some Muslims die their hair a gingery red (I can't remember what it is called).


There are plenty of Muslims with blonde hair too ... they aren't a race you know. Besides, I don't see the Fremen as Muslims at all, but that's just me I guess. The Fremen are ... Fremen!
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby SandChigger » 30 Jun 2010 10:21

Quite. As Zensunnis, they would probably be considered heretics or apostates by modern Muslims. ;)

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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Serkanner » 30 Jun 2010 12:09

SandChigger wrote:Quite. As Zensunnis, they would probably be considered heretics or apostates by modern Muslims. ;)


Thank you ... somehow I couldn't recall Zensunni ... even while I am re-reading Dune at this very moment :?
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jun 2010 15:35

Serkanner wrote:
Kensai wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?


Wasn't that just Liet who was half caste/mixed race?

I know how to explain the Chani redhead thing, seeing as some Muslims die their hair a gingery red (I can't remember what it is called).


There are plenty of Muslims with blonde hair too ... they aren't a race you know. Besides, I don't see the Fremen as Muslims at all, but that's just me I guess. The Fremen are ... Fremen!


Yeah but we're talking about the Fremen, as a people, having dark skin due to environmental conditions.

The Fremen across from Hawat threw back his hood and stillsuit cap to reveal
sandy hair and beard. The hair was combed straight back from a high, thin
forehead. He had the unreadable total blue eyes of the spice diet. Beard and
mustache were stained at one side of the mouth, his hair matted there by
pressure of the looping catchtube from his nose plugs.

~Dune
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Jun 2010 15:39

Freakzilla wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Kensai wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh I agree, they'd be darker, whatever their features looked like.


So how do you explain the blonde hair?


Wasn't that just Liet who was half caste/mixed race?

I know how to explain the Chani redhead thing, seeing as some Muslims die their hair a gingery red (I can't remember what it is called).


There are plenty of Muslims with blonde hair too ... they aren't a race you know. Besides, I don't see the Fremen as Muslims at all, but that's just me I guess. The Fremen are ... Fremen!


Yeah but we're talking about the Fremen, as a people, having dark skin due to environmental conditions.

The Fremen across from Hawat threw back his hood and stillsuit cap to reveal
sandy hair and beard. The hair was combed straight back from a high, thin
forehead. He had the unreadable total blue eyes of the spice diet. Beard and
mustache were stained at one side of the mouth, his hair matted there by
pressure of the looping catchtube from his nose plugs.

~Dune


You know, maybe they never would have evolved darker skin if they had always been acting nocternally. Plus, it's not like they ever would have been running around naked in the sun, so again, dark skin wouldn't be a necessary trait.


That said, they should still be darker skinned IMO, just seems more right.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jun 2010 15:41

I've always pictured them with olive skin.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Jun 2010 15:44

Freakzilla wrote:I've always pictured them with olive skin.


Me too, more or less. Maybe a bit darker.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Kensai » 04 Jul 2010 15:16

Even if they did restrict their activities to the night, I still think that their skin would have darked just because of how long they had been there.

Yeah I don't see the Zensuni as being "Muslims" (as it contradicts the whole Mohammed is the final prophet thingy). I always though they may have some slight oriental features because of their Zen Buddhist background (I know Buddhism isn't a race, but seeing as the vast majority of Buddhist are East Asian). The Freemen image I have in my head looks almost central Asian, like a Khazak or a Mongolian.

I'b be happy if the movie Fremen looked at least like Afghan Girls:

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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby SandChigger » 04 Jul 2010 17:02

ZENSUNNI: followers of a schismatic sect that broke away from the teachings of Maometh (the so-called "Third Muhammed") about 1381 B.G. The Zensunni religion is noted chiefly for its emphasis on the mystical and a reversion to "the ways of the fathers." Most scholars name Ali Ben Ohashi as leader of the original schism but there is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nisai.

According to that, there were at least two more Muhammads. ;)

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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby Petike the Smuggler » 07 May 2011 17:00

I'm sorry for necroing this thread. :? Don't pile on the n00b, please ! :wink:

I just find the topic pretty fascinating, really. 8) Yes, even though our current Earth ethnicities matter little during the era of the Old Imperium, since none of them exist anymore. Well, unless you count the Jews in Chapterhouse.

All right, my two cents:
Grumman is a surname, probably of German origin. Over the years, I've noticed there are some barers of it in North America (not sure about Germany or its neighbouring countries though). But the most famous usage of the surname was the title of the well-known aircraft manufacturer and aerospace company : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman (Currently Northrop Grumman.)

A ridiculous idea, but : How far away from Earth/Terra was the planet Grumman supposed to be ? Because unless it was simply named after some long forgotten historical figure or its discoverer, couldn't there be a teensy possibility that a far future descendant of the original company manufactured the first colony ship that made it there during the earliest history of interstellar flight (many millenia before the BJ, Guild or Imperium) ? Of course, the company would be a long forgotten piece of old Terran trivia by the time of the Imperium, but the name would still live on. Kind of like Ix was originally IX (9)...

SandChigger wrote:The Ixian thing is in Children of Dune:

I've speculated (somewhere) about the Ixians having a strong Asian component in their background, based on this and (less persuasively) the name Pinky and The Brian give an Ixian character in Grunters and Sadworms (Shayama Sen...which looks Japanese)...assuming they may have done so based on something in FH's notes or that they have reached the same conclusion.

Maybe FH had Japanese electronics makers in mind when thinking about Ix and Richese?


Damn, I'm quoting such an old post, but I've already necroed the thread, so here goes... I think I vaguely remember the Chinese-sounding term from the third book, but I've never given it much thought. The Ixians being mostly descendants of East Asians is a pretty interesting idea though. On a similar note: I wonder how your average Duniverse inhabitant would look like. Obviously, the enviroment of his home planet would probably be the determining factor on his outward appearance... But do you think such a person might have facial or other physical features associated with any of the current human races (the 3 or 4 "main ones" and the multitude of transitive ones) ?
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby SadisticCynic » 07 May 2011 21:04

(Note: don't worry about resurrecting old threads, it's encouraged here).
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby SandChigger » 07 May 2011 21:45

Yep, no thread is ever truly dead here. (A few smell like they need burying, of course, but if you stay upwind of the Politics forum... ;) )

Petike the Smuggler wrote:All right, my two cents :
Grumman is a surname, probably of German origin. Over the years, I've noticed there are some barers of it in North America (not sure about Germany or its neighbouring countries though). But the most famous usage of the surname was the title of the well-known aircraft manufacturer and aerospace company : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman (Currently Northrop Grumman.)

A ridiculous idea...

Not at all. You could very well have pinpointed where FH got the idea. Although there have been other suggestions (see below).

How far away from Earth/Terra was the planet Grumman supposed to be ? Because unless it was simply named after some long forgotten historical figure or its discoverer, couldn't there be a teensy possibility that a far future descendant of the original company manufactured the first colony ship that made it there during the earliest history of interstellar flight (many millenia before the BJ, Guild or Imperium) ? Of course, the company would be a long forgotten piece of old Terran trivia by the time of the Imperium, but the name would still live on. Kind of like Ix was originally IX (9)...

Grumman is the "second planet of Niushe". According to Joseph M. Daniels in his "Dune Gazetteer"*,
Niushe is the Chinese name for Psi Draconis and means "Palace Governess" or "Literary Woman". The ordinary name for this star, Dsiban, is a corruption of the Arabic Al Dhibain, meaning the "Hyenas", an asterism the Arabs saw in this and surrounding stars. [SN, page 212] ... Actually Psi Draconis is a binary star whose components are 30" apart. I am associating Niushe with the primary star of the two.

The star is 71.9 LY from Earth. About Grumman itself we have,
Grumman is the second planet of Niushe and the home planet of House Moritani, who fought and defeated the House Ginaz in a war of assassins.

The House Ginaz will be an ally of the Atreides; and Duncan Idaho (the Original), their Swordmaster. Their defeat in 10181 was a prelude to the disaster on Dune ten years later. [DE, pages 501-502]

It is believed that Grumman will be the native planet of Nayla, the Fish Speaker whose loyalty Leto II so cruelly twisted to consummate his sacrifice. [DE, page 396]

The planetary name may have been suggested by the name for Xi Draconis: Grumium, meaning "jaw (of the dragon)". [SN, page 211] For comments on the star and constellation, see "Corrin", "Gamont", and "Arrakis".

To be honest, I like your suggestion better. ;) But we have to keep in mind the gulf of time between now and then, and how the names may have changed with the language. Names are usually more resistant to time's ravages, but even "Atreides" eventually becomes "Odrade" in at least one dialect of Galach. ;)

I think I vaguely remember the Chinese-sounding term from the third book, but I've never given it much thought. The Ixians being mostly descendants of East Asians is a pretty interesting idea though. On a similar note : I wonder how your average Duniverse inhabitant would look like. Obviously, the enviroment of his home planet would probably be the determining factor on his outward appearance... But do you think such a person might have facial or other physical features associated with any of the current human races (the 3 or 4 "main ones" and the multitude of transitive ones) ?

Yes, the phrase is from CoD:
Muad'Dib's religion had another name now; it was Shien-san-Shao, an Ixian label which designated the intensity and insanity of those who thought they could bring the universe to paradise at the point of a crysknife.

Of course, in twenty thousand years' time even English could become so analytic and its words so whittled down that it could be the ancestor of the Ixian language. Without more data we can't really say what the original is in terms of linguistic analysis, but FH's use of modern exemplars projected far into the future is at least suggestive. ;) (If it is supposed to be Chinese, the romanization is odd. Or one that I don't recognize... always a possibility! :lol: )

It really is impossible to say what the average inhabitant of the Duniverse will look like. Obviously there are still gingers. ;) :lol:


*Daniels, Joseph M. (1999) The Stars and Planets of Frank Herbert's _Dune_: A Gazetteer (available as text file at many locations online; just google it.)

"SN = Star Names, by Richard Hinckley Allen (Dover Publications, Inc., New York, 1963). A re-publication of Star-Names and Their Meanings, 1899. (This book, given its status as a classic work on this subject, may very well have been a source-or even the source-for Frank Herbert.)"

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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 May 2011 16:01

Us redheads are indeed the master race! Yar!
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Postby SandRider » 08 May 2011 17:37

I used to have red hair ....

& yes, always look for old threads if you have something in mind to post about;
you may find your answer, or you may find that we agree with you, or you may
find that you are completely wrong (which saves us from correcting mis-conceptions
and so forth ... well, not really "us", I'll only get involved in that kinda shit if the
new poster smells like a shitheel and I can abuse and mock them ... )

the other benefit of thread-resurrection is re-visiting the topic - it may well be that
in the time since the thread was really active, some of us may have had other thoughts,
or other points of view from some other topic could shed light or so forth ... (again, not
really "us", I mean "them" ... I don't think too hard about all this; f'chrissakes, it's just
a book ..)

and also, someone may recharge an old thread that someone hasn't ever read - like me on
this one .... well, I don't think I've been thru here ... the title wasn't familiar and
fuck me if I've EVER been in the "Landsraad & Emperor" forum ... I'll not read thru the
thing right now, got stuff to do, Imma busy man ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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