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    wormholes

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    wormholes

    Postby distrans » 10 Feb 2018 23:29

    so to be clear

    once their propagated

    do you then move into them

    or do you remain still while they envelope your position...
    Last edited by distrans on 18 Feb 2018 12:14, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: wornholes

    Postby georgiedenbro » 15 Feb 2018 14:17

    Do you mean wormholes within context of folding space like the Guild does? Because that's not the tech used in this series, I believe.
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby distrans » 18 Feb 2018 12:15

    yes,
    its assumed the guild uses wormholes to 'fold' space?
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Feb 2018 12:45

    distrans wrote:yes,
    its assumed the guild uses wormholes to 'fold' space?


    No. Or rather, I should say that this is never mentioned in the text. My basic assumption is that "being many places at once" is a property relevant to being an oracle, and the Holtzmann engines, which employ science no one really understands, tap into the same structure in the universe that the oracle does when he can see the future or other places. The term "folding space" is a shorthand for having two distinct places meet as if adjacent to each other, but in terms of what's physically happening the story doesn't say. But none of what we understand would go into wormhole travel is mentioned in the story, so I'm fairly confident to say that is not what's happening. They're doing something else here, and I suspect it's a thing not currently present in current scientific theory (even as a wild notion).
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby Omphalos » 19 Feb 2018 16:27

    I don't think that Herbert said anything clearly about wormholes at all. The term "wormhole" implies to me an area that is outside of normal space, where the rules of physics are different, or a conduit from one area of space to another where the rules are different.

    But the term "folding space" implies to me that they never leave normal space, and instead use something else, like an artificial gravity well, that curves space artificially (just as a sun, or a black hole do) to make the traveling distance in normal space from one point to another lesser. So, rules of speed and velocity are the same, you just do not have to go as far.

    None of this comes from the book though. More from being a SF-geek. Is there anything in the text I am forgetting about distrans?
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby Omphalos » 19 Feb 2018 16:31

    Actually, isn't there something about "motionless movement" or something like that? Can't recall if that is from the books, or just what I got from the movie. But if from the books it may be that they are bending space to such a degree that two points separated by vast distances are placed right next to each other by bending space around them, so no thrusting engine is needed.

    Pretty sure there is some thread around here where I used the classy image of a boogar on a piece of paper to illustrate the concept.
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby distrans » 19 Feb 2018 23:19

    no Omphalos
    I'm not bringing any reading of dune to bear here

    the spiritual nature of the powers that navigators possessed and which paul and alia and leto surpassed to me didn't translate into an ability to transcend physicality. there were simply aids in directing motion more suscessfully

    and having a hand on more of its controls than most mortals

    ive always like the pictures of ships simply shimmering out of existance
    as if once a passage was established it took no more access them than to let the electrons in orbit of your physical existance swing around the longside of their orbits and boom your there

    always thought the emporer asking how navigators journey from IX had been was odd...
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby georgiedenbro » 20 Feb 2018 11:39

    distrans wrote:no Omphalos
    the spiritual nature of the powers that navigators possessed and which paul and alia and leto surpassed to me didn't translate into an ability to transcend physicality.


    Do you mean "transcend spatial distance"? Because I don't think anything in the story transcends physicality in the sense of being literally removed from physical reality. But actually we do know that the power of the oracle transcends physical distance because they can instantly "see" things very far away with no time delay, including things in the future and past.

    there were simply aids in directing motion more suscessfully


    To follow up on my first point, it can't just be this, because what the Holtzmann engine does with a physical ship seems to me to be roughly the same thing the mind of an oracle can do with information. In other words, the oracle's mind is an informational-Holtzmann engine; or perhaps it would be more accurate to say a Holtzmann engine is a crude version of what the oracle can potentially do. There is some differentiation, since we never say an oracle teleport objects, but as I see it in both cases we're talking about transmission of information instantly across massive distances. Whether the engines can theoretically also travel through time I don't know. I believe that the Destination: Void books employ the same physics as Dan Simmons' Hyperion series, and in that series such a person absolutely can will themselves through space and time, so if I'm going to extrapolate I might surmise that the same would be true in the Dune universe, except that no one's learned how to do so yet. This is already at the point of speculation to the power of three, so I understand that I'm just throwing out ideas.
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby Omphalos » 21 Feb 2018 10:16

    Feels like this conversation has taken a turn to fru-fru-land. I think I am going to give up on it.
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    Re: wormholes

    Postby distrans » 21 Feb 2018 14:02

    what I meant was that prescience didn't ever move an atom in space
    its power was thought alone

    i never thought of the engines as at all aproximating the ability of the prescienct

    different entirely

    always took it that the engines afford the means to travel as such but it took the prescient to be able to steer them suscessfully enough to become reliable rather than gambits
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