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    Chapter 01

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      ʙᴏᴏᴋ ᴏɴᴇ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴜɴᴇ ᴄʜʀᴏɴɪᴄʟᴇꜱ

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    Chapter 01

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 17:27

    A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are
    correct. This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows. To begin your study of
    the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born
    in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take the most special
    care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis. Do not be
    deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan and lived his first fifteen
    years there. Arrakis, the planet known as Dune, is forever his place.

    -from "Manual of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

    A week before the move to Arrakis an old crone comes to visit young Paul's mother in the ancient Atreides family Castle Caladan. She's let in the side entrance by the boy's mother, Jessica, and shown to his room where he's sleeping. She asks Jessica if she thinks he's the Kwisatz Haderach. She notices that he's small for his age of 15, awake and listening to them, she tells Jessica that royalty has need of slyness and tells him to rest well for tomorrow and her gom jabbar, he'll need it. They leave and he lies awake wondering what the gom jabbar is, and how strange the old woman was and how disrespectful she had treated the Lady Jessica. He wonders if the Gom Jabbar is something from Arrakis. Thufir Hawat, the Atreides Master of assassins, had explained how for eighty years their mortal enemies, the Harkonnens, have had a CHOAM contract to mine the spice there and now they are to replace the Harkonnens by Imperial order, an appearant victory for his father, Duke Leto Atreides who is becoming popular in the Landsraad causing powerful people to become jealous.

    He falls asleep and dreams of water dripping in an dim Arrakeen cave, knowing he will remember this dream and it is a prediction. He wakens and wonders if there will be people to play with on Arrakis since the class system isn't so ridgid there as had been explained by his teacher Dr. Yueh. He's tense so he decides to practice a mind-body lesson his mother taught him and remembers a lesson about human versus animal consciousness until dawn. His mother enters and hurries him to meet the Reverend Mother. He says he's dreamed of her before. She tells he she's the Emperor's Truthsayer and he will meet her Gom Jabbar.

    Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam awaits, damning the Spacing Guild's abominable ways and Jessica for not bearing a daughter as she was ordered to do. Jessica enters, curtsies. Paul bows cautiously, which Mohiam notes. She tells Jessica to leave and before she does tells Paul to remember he is a Duke's son durring this test, he senses fear in her and wonders at it. Mohiam tells Paul that his mother was once her serving wench and orders Paul to come to her, he feels his muscles compelled to obey her. She shows him a box and orders him to put his hand in it. As he does, she lifts a needle to his neck, the Gom Jabbar, with a drop of poison on the tip. She tells him not to draw away or she will kill him. She touches his neck with a finger and Paul doesn't flinch, he passed the first test. She tells him there is pain in the box, he must withstand the pain to pass the test, if he withdraws his hand he dies. Paul endures more pain than any male child ever, Mohiam thinks she wanted him to fail, she withdraws the needle and tells him to take his hand out. It is unharmed. It is a test of his humanity, to see if his mind can override instinct. Paul sees the truth in it and tells her that he knows when people are telling the truth. She thinks he may be the one, she calls Jessica back in and she's relieved to see Paul alive. Paul asks why they test for humans. Mohiam says it's to set them free, once men turned their thinking over to machines hoping this would set them free, but it only allowed other men with machines to enslave them. The Great Revolt took away the machines an forced humans to develope their minds, forming the Great Schools. Only two remain, the Guild and the Bene Gesserit. The Guild practices pure math. To Mohiam's great suprise, Paul decuces the function of the Bene Gesserit is politics. The Bene Gesserit was originally started to seperate the humans from animals to breed them. He asks about the Kwisatz Haderach. Mohiam tells them how Reverend Mothers can remember the pasts of their female ancestors. One day a man will come who can remember both masculine and feminine pasts, the Kwisatz Haderach. This is unlocked by a dangerous drug and all men who have tried it have died.
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    Postby halcyo » 20 Feb 2008 12:58

    Obviously it is interesting to note that Paul has already been PREDICTING FUTURE PATHS AND POSSIBILITIES (or 'having visions'). I specify because I think it's important to realize that Paul does not KNOW the future, he just works out what the most POSSIBLE futures will be, which is why he can still have some questions, doubts, hopes, etc.

    I am amazed at how few people realize that the definition of what the Kwizatz Haderach is is so EXPLICITLY explained right away in the first chapter: Reverend Mothers can remember the pasts of their female ancestors, but are unable to endure looking into their male ancestor's pasts. The Kwizatz Haderach will be able to see both without mental harm. It's really that simple, and any other definitions and/or connotations are apparently based on myths, legends, and indoctrination. All this stuff about 'being two places at once' and others are not REALLY what he is, but only what others believe Paul to be.

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    Postby Mandy » 20 Feb 2008 15:17

    I think the "being in two places at once" actually refers to his ability to look into his male and female genetic memory, not that he can physically be in two places at once.
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 20 Feb 2008 16:13

    Mandy wrote:I think the "being in two places at once" actually refers to his ability to look into his male and female genetic memory, not that he can physically be in two places at once.


    Hmmm, I always thought that referred to his ability to be be standing in the now and present, but looking somewhere else with prescience. I think, in fact, its actually "many places at once", isn't it?
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    Postby Mandy » 20 Feb 2008 16:51

    I can't remember! :) .. but I know it doesn't mean he's in two/many places physically, but that he is mentally in more than one place.
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    Postby halcyo » 20 Feb 2008 17:42

    Mandy wrote:I think the "being in two places at once" actually refers to his ability to look into his male and female genetic memory, not that he can physically be in two places at once.


    Yes, that's what I said, right?! Maybe I was unclear :? ?


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    Postby Mandy » 20 Feb 2008 19:11

    No you said that's what people believe Paul to be, and that isn't what people believe him to be.
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    Postby halcyo » 20 Feb 2008 19:26

    Mandy wrote:No you said that's what people believe Paul to be, and that isn't what people believe him to be.


    I guess we are misunderstanding one another - Your opinion is the SAME as my opinion.

    What I said was:
    It's really that simple, and any other definitions and/or connotations are apparently based on myths, legends, and indoctrination. All this stuff about 'being two places at once' and others are not REALLY what he is, but only what others believe Paul to be.


    I guess when I say 'others' believing, I mean the fremen, and later on the religious myths and legends he becomes. All I mean in the end is that the Kwizatz Haderach's definition is not mysterious - it is explicitly defined right here in the beginning of the book!

    Alright, lets all get back on the same train of thought here :D

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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Feb 2008 19:32

    ...
    "The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's
    gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory -- in her body's
    memory. We look down so many avenues of the past . . . but only feminine
    avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no
    Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will
    come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where
    we cannot -- into both feminine and masculine pasts."
    "Your Kwisatz Haderach?"
    "Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men
    have tried the drug . . . so many, but none has succeeded."
    "They tried and failed, all of them?"
    "Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

    ~End of Chapter One

    It's the ultimate drug. If you live through it you will be able to look into both masculine and feminine pasts. That combined with Paul's prescient dreams would be powerfull.
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    Postby halcyo » 20 Feb 2008 21:42

    Freakzilla wrote:It's the ultimate drug. If you live through it you will be able to look into both masculine and feminine pasts. That combined with Paul's prescient dreams would be powerfull.


    If a male lives through it, to be specific-right!?. Tell you what would be worth ALOT of discussion is this:

    - The female is terrorized to see into the "Taker" half of their ancestral memory- all of the male greed, violence, and terrible 'maleness' would overwhelm the female psyche (as later happens to Alia-among other things), right?

    - The Bene Gesserit training is the only thing that allows a person to live through the trance- training that can allow a person to regulate internal bodily functions to 'change the poison'.

    - If those two points are true, then could ANY male who is sufficiently trained (however rare) do this? The only thing that could justify the answer NO is if almost every other male in existence, up to Paul, was not really capable of Other Memory in the first place, no matter what the drugs, right? Perhaps the male is not sensitive enough to 'listen to his cellular memory', or something to that effect?

    So Paul is the product of a line of breeding that makes him very unlike other males in the sense that he is able to also be more feminine somehow (Giver AND Taker), as well as his extraordinary prescient/mentat (somewhat the same in this sense) abilities that allow him to decipher the paths the future will take. Another discussion for another chapter: Does Paul
    dream of the future, or does he compute it?:shock:
    And on top of that, the spice then amplifies both of those inherent traits to extraordinary levels. Is this a consensus?

    I'm curious to know what you guys think. I'm inclined to look at Dune more realistically than fantastically, but maybe I am trying too hard to justify my realist views... To me, the series, and all of the extraordinary abilities of the characters is due to thousands of years of human evolution, not just a fantastical imaginary 'magic', but others DO view Dune as being more 'out there' sci-fi in a more fictional universe (even though Frank clearly states that it IS in our universe-somewhere).


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    Postby SandChigger » 21 Feb 2008 06:19

    Genetic Other Memory as portrayed in the books is definitely "out there." DNA simply cannot store the type and amount of information described, and no amout of rationalization or appeal to "junk DNA" is going to change that. It's just one of the impossilbe elements of the Duniverse we have to accept to be happy campers there. ;)

    As for prescience, I tend to look at it as some form of evolved sensitivity, a way of perceiving the potential futures stemming from any point in time, any of which, if chosen, could become a reality. But it is a physical capability conferred by an individual's genetic structure in conjunction with a physical catalyst, in this case the spice. It is NOT magic. Mentat training obviously plays a role, but I simply can't see how anyone can "compute" future or distant events in the absence of relevant data. (For example, Paul knew he would soon be on Arrakis. He knew there were desert dwellers there called Fremen. That much of the dream could be extrapolation from waking knowledge, with gaps filled in by imagination. Nothing really prescient about it. But if it turns out later that the scene unfolds exactly as he forsaw it, down to the smallest detail of the setting, etc., I don't see how that could possibly be the result of computation alone.) Maybe the Mentat training helps the prescient to focus and organize the information obtained through prescience?

    Nothing substantive to add on the male/female OM distinction except to point out that if OM is genetic, then there would have to be a logical explanation for why females would be more sensitve than males to something so fundamental and common to all humans.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby GamePlayer » 21 Feb 2008 11:35

    Like a variant of Asimov's psychohistory? I'm not sure that prescience can be distilled down to computation and prediction. I appreciate the rational manner in which you're attemtping to explain prescience, but there's too many loopholes to fit that kind of theory, IMO.
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    Postby halcyo » 21 Feb 2008 14:26

    I'm sure Frank would, of course, say that we should all just relax our minds and just enjoy that it is all meant to be a bit mysterious. That is, after all, what makes the main characters in the story so special - that they have strange gifts and abilities that aren't really able to be understood. Frank Herbert is especially good at leaving out details that allow the reader to draw his own conclusions and use his own imagination to fill in the gaps.

    I think most of us can agree that Frank didn't intend for it to be magic, but he also doesn't really leave us with nearly enough information to scientifically explain any of it, which is normal considering it is supposed to be a story that takes place THOUSANDS of years from now - so of course we shouldn't understand. Frank writes his narrative as if the reader is just observing the present, and if you really were there observing, you would be slightly confused and out of place, which is what makes the story more 'REAL'.

    But of course, if there was no mystery surrounding it, there wouldn't be discussion forums, and I wouldn't have the chance to chat with you fine folks, now would I? :D

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    Postby Mandy » 21 Feb 2008 15:19

    SandChigger wrote:Genetic Other Memory as portrayed in the books is definitely "out there." DNA simply cannot store the type and amount of information described, and no amout of rationalization or appeal to "junk DNA" is going to change that. It's just one of the impossilbe elements of the Duniverse we have to accept to be happy campers there. ;)



    Plus the "out there" idea of being able to share Other Memory with someone else using some kind of BG mind meld :)

    I don't mind the far out aspects of Dune at all, but then I also enjoy fantasy.
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    Postby halcyo » 21 Feb 2008 17:33

    Plus the "out there" idea of being able to share Other Memory with someone else using some kind of BG mind meld :)

    I don't mind the far out aspects of Dune at all, but then I also enjoy fantasy.


    Yes, I suppose it is VERY difficult to explain, but no entirely impossible I suppose. But it IS pretty out there.... :wink:

    I also enjoy fantasy - I practically learned to read novels with Terry Brooks' Shannara series. But for some reason, Dune always feels more realist than other 'all out sci-fi'....

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    Postby Mandy » 21 Feb 2008 18:55

    I can't think of one (real) scientific explanation for the transfer of memory from one person to another through the air or skin.. or however. It seems that those with the ability to transform the WoL are telepaths. Which is fine, it's a common theme in sci fi.
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    Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 10:06

    halcyo wrote:I'm sure Frank would, of course, say that we should all just relax our minds and just enjoy that it is all meant to be a bit mysterious. That is, after all, what makes the main characters in the story so special - that they have strange gifts and abilities that aren't really able to be understood. Frank Herbert is especially good at leaving out details that allow the reader to draw his own conclusions and use his own imagination to fill in the gaps.

    I think most of us can agree that Frank didn't intend for it to be magic, but he also doesn't really leave us with nearly enough information to scientifically explain any of it, which is normal considering it is supposed to be a story that takes place THOUSANDS of years from now - so of course we shouldn't understand. Frank writes his narrative as if the reader is just observing the present, and if you really were there observing, you would be slightly confused and out of place, which is what makes the story more 'REAL'.

    But of course, if there was no mystery surrounding it, there wouldn't be discussion forums, and I wouldn't have the chance to chat with you fine folks, now would I? :D

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    Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 10:07

    Mandy wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Genetic Other Memory as portrayed in the books is definitely "out there." DNA simply cannot store the type and amount of information described, and no amout of rationalization or appeal to "junk DNA" is going to change that. It's just one of the impossilbe elements of the Duniverse we have to accept to be happy campers there. ;)



    Plus the "out there" idea of being able to share Other Memory with someone else using some kind of BG mind meld :)

    I don't mind the far out aspects of Dune at all, but then I also enjoy fantasy.
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    Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 10:15

    halcyo wrote:(even though Frank clearly states that it IS in our universe-somewhere).


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    Postby Omphalos » 22 Feb 2008 14:27

    Mandy wrote:Did you forget to post? :?


    Musta gotten picked up in those other four posts. :P
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    Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 14:54

    And you can answer the opened questions.
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 Feb 2008 17:58

    Fantomas,

    Ninti is trying to be helpful, not demeaning.

    If you are having problems posting, I am glad to help. Nobody expects you to understand all aspects of forum etiquette right away, or the technical aspects of how the forums work, but we do expect you to work to understand them. That does not sound like much to ask, does it?

    As for threads that you don't appreciate, you are not under any compulsion to participate in them. You have made your point in the other thread. That is sufficient for us to understand how you feel.

    Now, how can I help you to understand the forums? PM me your questions and I will be happy to answer all of them for you.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 22 Feb 2008 18:25

    fantomas wrote:You guys go OFFTOPIC AND TALK ABOUT SOMEONE EATING SHIT & DEFECATION AND BULLSHIT.


    Off topic is something everyone has had to adjust to in these last three Dune communities. I had to adjust to it as well, but once you do, it's not a problem.

    As for that particular off-topic post, well I'm proud to say that's pretty much all my fault :)
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 Feb 2008 18:53

    fantomas wrote:Thank You Proud Man.
    Thank You Omphalos.


    de nada.
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    Postby Mandy » 22 Feb 2008 19:48

    Wow.. wasn't expecting all that!

    Anyway :)

    I remember when I first read the litany against fear, and wishing it would actually work. It's probably my favorite quote from Dune. Who hasn't, at one time or another, used it in their signature? :P

    "I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

    Just one of the many many quotes from Dune that made me love it.
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