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    Chapter 01

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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 11 Feb 2011 19:50

    And yes after a reread it seems Jessica is about out of her mind when she learns Paul lived. I guess the death threat was real.
    How the hell would thatve gone over just before the move?
    Leto- Have you got everything?
    Jess- Luggage furniture yes. Oh and Paul is dead.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 11 Feb 2011 23:34

    Bringing up Pauls birthplace was a mistake and I apologise for tapping on such an obviously raw nerve. :oops:

    Enno wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:2) Mohiam would indeed have killed him if he removed his hand from the box. Remember that only certain people are tested to see if they are human; Paul is suspected to be the KH, a male Bene Gesserit (more or less) and so would be tested in this manner. So hopefully lots of aristocrats would not be losing heirs.

    She says its for breeding. And she makes it sound like it happens a lot like sand through a screen. Theres no political continuity without separating human from animal stock for breeding sounds like theyve made it their mission to manage the breeding of the whole aristocracy. I understand the Paul may be the KH but she implies the she wont let an animal be a political leader.

    I sense that I shouldnt get to ahead of the chapters but Jessica announces that Pauls been tested with the gom jabbar and all the fremen know what shes talking about. This test is widespread or it isnt. So much for the pretty penny to know the secrets of the box. Do you think the emperor went through this test? Was Mohiam pulling Pauls leg?
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SandChigger » 12 Feb 2011 05:31

    As for how well known the gom jabbar is, Paul at fifteen obviously has no idea what it is. We're not told about the origins of the thing, but the name is Arabic and the Fremen obviously recognize it, so it could be a calque from Chakobsa and have originated with the ancient Bhotani assassins. Just speculating, of course. :)

    I can't think of a good reason for anyone to have put the Emperor through the test. :think:
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SadisticCynic » 12 Feb 2011 06:59

    By the way, this:

    SadisticCynic wrote:Technically no it's not inconceivable...


    was a little stupid, kindly disregard. :)

    Sandchigger wrote:As for how well known the gom jabbar is, Paul at fifteen obviously has no idea what it is. We're not told about the origins of the thing, but the name is Arabic and the Fremen obviously recognize it, so it could be a calque from Chakobsa and have originated with the ancient Bhotani assassins. Just speculating, of course.


    Since the Fremen even adopted BG terms for things (e.g. Reverend Mother) from their indoctrination by the Missionaria, they might have the gom jabbar process (or something similar) as part of their belief system, although nothing like that is suggested by the text I think.

    Ampoliros wrote:I doubt an 'animal' could successfully wield those powers and in the end it would be a waste.


    OK. I was thinking that he would have some ability, but wouldn't have the self-restraint to use it properly/safely. I can imagine him subsequently becoming 'pathologically minded'.
    Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 12 Feb 2011 15:08

    SandChigger wrote:I can't think of a good reason for anyone to have put the Emperor through the test.

    "Why do you test for humans?" he asked.
    "To set you free."
    (They talk about the jihad and human computers and introduce the guild before Paul guesses the BG job)
    "Politics!"...
    "Politics indeed.The original BG school was directed by those who saw the need of a thread of continuity in human affairs.They saw there could be no such continuity without separating human stock from animal stock- for breeding purposes."
    This is where my question comes from. Do all political leaders put up with this crap or just potential KHs and fremen?
    [edit] and BG applicants as Jessica went through it.[/edit]
    The Dukester wrote:No, not a mistake ... it's a legitimate topic,

    I ment my mistake was calling out a topic so dear to the hearts of the OHers. It immeadiatly put me at odds with an established viewpoint and works against my reasons for joining. Part of me couldnt help but kick the beehive a little so I cant be upset when the defenders get to work. If im to collect the sweet honey of deeper understanding I should focus on the comb and the bee not the box that others build around it.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SandChigger » 12 Feb 2011 21:27

    Enno wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:I can't think of a good reason for anyone to have put the Emperor through the test.

    "Why do you test for humans?" he asked.
    "To set you free."
    (They talk about the jihad and human computers and introduce the guild before Paul guesses the BG job)
    "Politics!"...
    "Politics indeed.The original BG school was directed by those who saw the need of a thread of continuity in human affairs.They saw there could be no such continuity without separating human stock from animal stock- for breeding purposes."
    This is where my question comes from. Do all political leaders put up with this crap or just potential KHs and fremen?
    [edit] and BG applicants as Jessica went through it.[/edit]

    OK. I think that "for breeding purposes" is the key point. Let's start with the BG applicants/acolytes (like Jessica) first: they would presumably be involved directly in the breeding program (which is not common knowledge: see the final scenes of the book & Mohiam's "Silence him!" scream), so it's important they not be "animals". (Then again, even obvious "animals" play their part in the program, too, so...)

    Even though many members of the aristocracy took BG(-trained) wives and courtesans, or sent their daughters to BG schools for training, I think it would be unwise to assume that those same aristocrats knew very much about the Sisterhood.

    Here's a question to think about in connection with Mohiam & the gom jabbar: Do you think Duke Leto or any of his retainers knew Paul was about to undergo a potentially lethal testing? ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 13 Feb 2011 01:14

    SandChigger wrote:Do you think Duke Leto or any of his retainers knew Paul was about to undergo a potentially lethal testing?

    Absolutely not! I think any of the big names in the Atredies lineup wouldve done their best to kill Mohiam before exposing Paul to potential harm let alone mortal danger! So I guess that the line about political continuity no longer applies and the BG has narrowed their focus for breeding to their own ends. She does say that it was a founding idea. BTW im ok with letting the fremen out of this part. For any number of reasons they live separately from humanity at large. Just because Jessica says that hes been tested with the high handed enemy doesnt mean the fremen naturally equate that to the box of pain.
    Is gom jabbar from chokobsa?
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SandChigger » 13 Feb 2011 03:24

    Enno wrote:So I guess that the line about political continuity no longer applies and the BG has narrowed their focus for breeding to their own ends.

    Well, I think maybe you're reading a little too much into it by assuming that a line of political continuity would require every ruler (or head of House) to undergo the testing and be found "human". Couldn't it also be achieved by surrounding rulers and leaders with influential women from their order? ;)

    Is gom jabbar from chokobsa?

    It isn't described as such in the books. In real world terms, the phrase is composed of Arabic dialectal forms. I've got two posts on the etymology on the blog, here and here, including speculation on the source where FH probably got the terms.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby inhuien » 13 Feb 2011 10:05

    I've always thought that the test was to reveal susceptibility to other memory possession, the explanation offered is merely Bene Gesserit spin. It is however a test of humanity.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 13 Feb 2011 12:03

    SandChigger wrote:Well, I think maybe you're reading a little too much into it by assuming that a line of political continuity would require every ruler (or head of House) to undergo the testing and be found "human".

    Youre right but in my defence her declaration doesnt leave a lot of wiggle room.
    SandChigger wrote: Couldn't it also be achieved by surrounding rulers and leaders with influential women from their order?

    From here on ill work under the assumption that this is the evolved BG point of view.
    inhuien wrote:I've always thought that the test was to reveal susceptibility to other memory possession, the explanation offered is merely Bene Gesserit spin.

    I really like how this (or something like it) explanes the parts I dont understand.
    inhuien wrote:It is however a test of humanity.

    Am I being to nit picky when I say that ive thought of the animal human thing as being more character based? Its about impulse controll right? And thats more of a product of upbringing than genetics? If this is true then it also serves to discount Mohiams explanation.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 14 Feb 2011 10:36

    Does anyone here really think that the author is saying that a child from two animals (using the gom jabbar definition) would never be able to pass the test?
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Feb 2011 10:46

    I think you're taking the human/animal aspect of the test too literally.

    The test is merely to observe the subject under crisis and to see if he/she can resist animal urges.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 14 Feb 2011 11:06

    Agreed! and thats a result of how youre raised so all that separating stock for breeding is a lie!
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Feb 2011 11:26

    Enno wrote:Agreed! and thats a result of how youre raised so all that separating stock for breeding is a lie!


    No, I don't think so. I'm sure they still want to know who can control their animal urges for breeding purposes. Some people, due to genetics, may not be able to resist their animal urges no matter how much training they've had.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 14 Feb 2011 11:35

    Then I guess thats about as far as we can go with this line. Smarter folks than I have debated nature vs nurture with no result.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Serkanner » 14 Feb 2011 13:51

    Enno wrote:Then I guess thats about as far as we can go with this line. Smarter folks than I have debated nature vs nurture with no result.


    Perhaps because both sides of the coin make the coin?
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby inhuien » 14 Feb 2011 13:59

    Serkanner wrote:
    Enno wrote:Then I guess thats about as far as we can go with this line. Smarter folks than I have debated nature vs nurture with no result.


    Perhaps because both sides of the coin make the coin?


    Or perhaps even though a Turtle's raised by Geese don't be thinking it's going to be flying south.
    Last edited by inhuien on 14 Feb 2011 15:00, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Serkanner » 14 Feb 2011 15:00

    inhuien wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Enno wrote:Then I guess thats about as far as we can go with this line. Smarter folks than I have debated nature vs nurture with no result.


    Perhaps because both sides of the coin make the coin?


    Or perhaps even though a Turtle's raised by Geese don't thinking it's ever going to be flying south.


    One needs to be the first ever :wink:
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    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Feb 2011 15:56

    The issue here isn't the truth of nature vs nurture, it's what FH said/implied the BG thought about it in regards to this trait. Whether or not it's something that could truely be bred for is irrelevant, it just matters that the BG probably thought it could be.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SandChigger » 14 Feb 2011 17:46

    Even good trees occasionally bear a bad apple.

    Look at Frank Herbert himself: all his apples fell far from the tree, rotten before they hit the ground.
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Enno » 14 Feb 2011 19:20

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    inhuien wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Enno wrote:Then I guess thats about as far as we can go with this line. Smarter folks than I have debated nature vs nurture with no result.

    Perhaps because both sides of the coin make the coin?

    Or perhaps even though a Turtle's raised by Geese don't thinking it's ever going to be flying south.

    One needs to be the first ever :wink:

    Even good trees occasionally bear a bad apple.
    Look at Frank Herbert himself: all his apples fell far from the tree, rotten before they hit the ground.

    The issue here isn't the truth of nature vs nurture, it's what FH said/implied the BG thought about it in regards to this trait. Whether or not it's something that could truely be bred for is irrelevant, it just matters that the BG probably thought it could be.

    True enough Thing and ill go a step further and say that it seems we all agree that separating animal from human stock for breeding purposes is bullshit especially if its supposed to result in a thread of political continuity. So in the end it sounds like Mohiam was pulling his leg. About that anyway. But then Pauls truthsense says that Mohiam obviously believed what she said even though her words had lost that special sharpness. In summation A Thing of Eternity has pointed out the heart of the matter. The BG did believe that animal stock couldnt be human. An idea supported by Jessica when she asks,"Whence comes such breeding?" She is shocked to see that a commoner could be so regal so HUMAN!
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Feb 2011 02:12

    SandChigger wrote:Even good trees occasionally bear a bad apple.

    Look at Frank Herbert himself: all his apples fell far from the tree, rotten before they hit the ground.


    Do we actually know there was anything wrong with the other son? Everything I've read made him sound like a fairly normal guy who died young, maybe got a little heavy into drugs and alcohol, but nothing that made him sound like a "bad apple"...
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby SandChigger » 15 Feb 2011 03:13

    Yeah, it's probably unfair to damn him by simple association. (Wrong thread to go into it in detail, though... :? )
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Dec 2011 13:05

    clean
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    Re: Chapter 01

    Postby ahnnah » 17 Dec 2011 10:25

    In my opinion, I think the whole test with the gom jabbar was to see if Paul was Aware, as in enlightened. It's the basic first step towards awakening your consciousness, controlling your instincts. Like in meditation-- if the goal is to sit still, then you sit still. Don't scratch your nose, don't shift your weight, sit still. It's very difficult for the majority of people to even be aware of these sorts of distractions in the body and mind, much less control their reaction to them. I think she was testing him to see if he was sheeple just the the masses or if he had 'evolved' moving towards the next stage of human development, an Awake/Aware human and therefore the potential KH. The basic human animal reacts to it's environment; the enlightened human being or awakened human becomes the watcher. He sees his environment acting upon him and instead of reaction, he assesses the situation and acts appropriately. I don't think any of the BG would be able to even begin training without this basic skill. The test is to see if his mind is capable of evolving. If he was not even aware enough to control his instincts then there would be no way he could be the kwisatz haderach. He would have just been an ordinary human..... and a dead one at that.




    -edit, I always forget to check the box at the bottom. :?
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