Chapter 45

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Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2008 17:37

And it came to pass in the third year of the Desert War that Paul-Muad'Dib lay
alone in the Cave of Birds beneath the kiswa hangings of an inner cell. And he
lay as one dead, caught up in the revelation of the Water of Life, his being
translated beyond the boundaries of time by the poison that gives life. Thus was
the prophecy made true that the Lisan al-Gaib might be both dead and alive.

-"Collected Legends of Arrakis" by the Princess Irulan

Chani is summoned North by Paul, but it was actually Jessica using Paul’s name with the permission of his lieutenants. Paul has been in a coma-like state for three weeks and his vital signs are barely detectable. Jessica tried reviving him for a week and suspects he’s been poisoned. Chani tells Jessica to bring some unchanged Water of Life and holds it near his lips. Paul awakens, drinks a handful of the unchanged Water and tells them he has seen through the water. He grabs Jessica and Shares with her, orders her to show him the place the Reverend Mothers cannot go, which she does, and he enters. Othyem eavesdrops on the whole conversation and disappears, Chani realizes he will tell everyone that it is the legend. Muad’dib is the Lisan al-Gaib. Jessica asks what he’s seen, he tells them that the space over Arrakis is filled with a combined Imperial and Landsraad armada. They wait for the Guild to find Paul. Paul plans to plant some changed Water of Life above a spice blow and start a chain reaction with will destroy the little makers and the spice forever.
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Postby Mandy » 17 Jun 2008 19:30

I like it because it reveals one of the prophesies. I always wonder what the BG think when one of the planted legends comes true.. I don't know if that one was planted by the Missionaria Protectiva or if it actually came from the Fremen, though. I guess it could be both.

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Postby SandChigger » 17 Jun 2008 21:31

Not a mind reader, Orald. If you want to conceal something, phrase your statements differently. :roll:

Mandy...you mean when one of them comes true without them (the BG) specifically engineering events in that direction, right?
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Jun 2008 08:08

I think you have it all backwards my 'Chigga. The BG is more subtle than that.

The planted prophecy IS the engineering which manipulates people dance for them. People make their own (planted or not) prophecys come true.
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Jun 2008 13:20

That didn't come out right, obviously. :(

What I was trying to get at was someone finding themself in a sitch where they had to make intentional use of the support system established by the MP, rather than the things taking on a life of their own.

Hmmm. Never mind.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby dm1215 » 19 Jun 2008 11:37

This chapter was very interesting to me because it is where the true shift of power starts to take place on Arrakis. Very powerful moment.
Long live the frightners!

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Postby Mandy » 19 Jun 2008 13:25

Well, the thing is they planted a lot of prophecies and legends but they don't expect all of them to come true, or be needed. Plus they were all kinda vague.. except where they were pretty specific. It's not really special that any single prophesy would come true, but many of them did.. so that would be pretty amazing. Especially when the prophesies regarding one person come true over and over again.

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 11:50

Ok guys, you seem to have a better grip on Pauls prescience/other memory than I, so here we go.

Paul can see the future. Like a guild navigator, maybe differently but similar. Too many people looking in the same area clouds the vision? Is this why he felt he had to take the Water?

He converts the Water, one little drop, & he's out for weeks. While he's unconcious, he takes a look around the Duniverse & learns some stuff. Is this more like an out of body expirience or has his prescience been upgraded?

Other Memory. I think Freak once posted somewhere that he got this from Jessica & I like that. What's getting me is how many. When Jessica got them from Romallo, I felt it was a chain of RMs one after another all of whom had a scary mens room they couldn't enter. Maybe that alone is proof enough that OM=genetic memory, i'm just not buying in on the idea that posession is the thing that makes the mens room scary. Am I being too liberal when I think that women can be as agressive as men when it comes to no longer wanting to 'ride along' in someone elses mind?
Also, by this time, the Water has been changed so Paul can enter the file room where OM is. Does he have to be shown where the door is?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Jun 2010 12:06

D Pope wrote:Other Memory. I think Freak once posted somewhere that he got this from Jessica & I like that. What's getting me is how many. When Jessica got them from Romallo, I felt it was a chain of RMs one after another all of whom had a scary mens room they couldn't enter. Maybe that alone is proof enough that OM=genetic memory, i'm just not buying in on the idea that posession is the thing that makes the mens room scary. Am I being too liberal when I think that women can be as agressive as men when it comes to no longer wanting to 'ride along' in someone elses mind?
Also, by this time, the Water has been changed so Paul can enter the file room where OM is. Does he have to be shown where the door is?


You're right about it being genetic memory, I believe it is actually called that at some points in the series. Paul got it from his parents and them from theirs and so on (from the RM was a telepathic transfer of OM, I don't recall if Jessica actually did transfer it to Paul as well).

As to possession being the reason women don't look at theiir male OM - I agree it's a pretty silly idea, but it IS what FH has said the reason is. It's central to the plot, so I can see why he did it, but yes, it is sexist BS really.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 12:20

So the breeding program is not kept secret from RMs? I mean they're gonna KNOW their lineage, maybe not each others.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 12:46

D Pope wrote:So the breeding program is not kept secret from RMs? I mean they're gonna KNOW their lineage, maybe not each others.


Yes it is secret but you can't prevent a RM from knowing her female lineage.

In answer to your earlier question, what Jessica got from Ramallo we commonly refer to as Shared Memory and as far as the story goes she did not share it with Paul.

And yes, Jessica is the one who shows Paul where Male OM is.

The root of female possession is covered in this chapter, too:

Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
"And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
"I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot
take without . . . " He broke off, looking to the wall at his right.
Chani felt a draft against her cheek, turned to see the hangings close.
"It was Otheym," Paul said. "He was listening."


It may be sexist bullshit but it is essential to the story.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby merkin muffley » 12 Jun 2010 13:20

Freakzilla wrote:It may be sexist bullshit but it is essential to the story.


FH's ideas about gender are always really complex and well-articulated, though. Sometimes I find it more interesting, possibly because it's more convincing, than the idea that there are no differences between men and women. He usually isn't saying that men are stronger than women, or vice versa. [EDIT]

I haven't taken the time to really think it through. There must be lots of interesting things written about FH and gender, eh?
Last edited by merkin muffley on 12 Jun 2010 14:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 13:30

merkin muffley wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:It may be sexist bullshit but it is essential to the story.


FH's ideas about gender are always really complex and well-articulated, though. Sometimes I find it more interesting, possibly because it's more convincing, than the idea that there are no differences between men and women. He usually isn't saying that men are stronger than women, or vice versa.


No, just different. I think for the most part he's right, women tend to be more giving and caring while men are more agressive. Of course there are exceptions though. Maybe it's a throwback to our male-hunter/female-gatherer evolution?

God Emperor strikes me as being a lot more damning towards men.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Please try not to post spoilers about other books in the reading group.

I haven't taken the time to really think it through. There must be lots of interesting things written about FH and gender, eh?


Omph? (He's got all the research papers over there.)
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby merkin muffley » 12 Jun 2010 14:54

Freakzilla wrote:Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Please try not to post spoilers about other books in the reading group.


Sorry, didn't occur to me. Edited.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 16:09

No, not as sexist as I was thinking. Either gender runs the risk from its opposite.

That stuff about Paul being at the fulcrum though seems a lot more like a cop out, is it possible he couldn't articulate a better answer?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 16:20

D Pope wrote:No, not as sexist as I was thinking. Either gender runs the risk from its opposite.

That stuff about Paul being at the fulcrum though seems a lot more like a cop out, is it possible he couldn't articulate a better answer?



I don't know about that, however I don't see how Paul couldn't help but lean at least a TINY bit to the male side, even with millions of memory lives.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 17:47

Not as sexist as I was thinking,"The greatest peril to the giver is the force that takes..." insert gender for giver & taker.
As for the fulcrum, I think it was an easy answer to a trite question, he's trying to cover some big issues when she asks, so what are you... I can almost hear her popping her gum after she asks.
Last edited by D Pope on 12 Jun 2010 18:02, edited 1 time in total.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 17:53

D Pope wrote:Not as sexist as I was thinking,"The greatest peril to the giver is the force that takes..." insert gender for giver & taker.
As for the fulcrum, I think it was an easy answer to a trite question, he's trying to cover some big issues when she asks, so what are you... I can almost hear her popping her gum after asking.


Valid point.

I can see him think through his choices...

a. abomination... no, she'll try to kill me.
b. the leader of a new religion who's jihad will kill tens of billions... no, she'll try to kill me.
c. fulcrum, yeah. That's the ticket.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 18:03

:lol:
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 18:17

All the possiblities of the future expressed as 'lines' fanned out till they get closer to the narrow door that is 'now' because all the little choices we make eliminate possibilities, right?

How do you muck up the vision? Some lines, some areas, can be hidden for reasons we can imagine, some we can't imagine, if you can go there & look at it, why would more lookers cloud it up?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 18:25

The mere act of looking changes the outcome. :wink:
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 18:53

So the more people looking the more changes till it's too muddy to see?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 45

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 19:42

Also keep in mind that the oracle creates the future. If you have multiple oracles you have more confusion.
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby SadisticCynic » 12 Jun 2010 19:52

Freakzilla wrote:Also keep in mind that the oracle creates the future. If you have multiple oracles you have more confusion.


Could the blank spots be futures that are already determined, in some sense, by another oracle? :think:
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Re: Chapter 45

Postby D Pope » 12 Jun 2010 20:11

There's an intereting thought, gonna think about that.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos


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