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    Chapter 20

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      ʙᴏᴏᴋ ᴛᴡᴏ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴜɴᴇ ᴄʜʀᴏɴɪᴄʟᴇꜱ

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    Chapter 20

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 21:34

    Tibana was an apologist for Socratic Christianity, probably a native of IV Anbus
    who lived between the eight and ninth centuries before Corrino, likely in the
    second reign of Dalamak. Of his writings, only a portion survives from which
    this fragment is taken: "The hearts of all men dwell in the same wilderness."

    -from The Dunebuk of Irulan

    Hayt has been sent by Paul to question Bijaz about his purpose. Bijaz tells him he is Duncan Idaho and he witnessed him being put into and removed from the tank. He questions whether he's aimed at Paul or Alia, and finally realize he is aimed at himself. He is intended to restore the origianal memories of Duncan Idaho in the ghola. Bijaz begins humming, through which he can control Hayt. He tells Hayt that they were both grown from the same take, Bijaz then Hayt and they are like brothers. He programs him to repeat certain responses when Paul says "She's gone". He tells Hayt that there is Harkonnen blood in Paul and Alia through Jessica, which angers him and that it is a trade the Tleilaxu want. He is to offer Paul a Chani ghola that could be modified if Paul wishes. The price is the renunciation of his goddhood, the Qizerate and relinquishment of his CHOAM holdings. They will offer him exile on a planet of his choice beyond the Imperium. Durring this, Hayt is to get close enough to Paul to kill him. Hayt refuses and Bijaz again points out Paul's Harkonnen ancestry, that should make it easier for Duncan Idaho. Bijaz claps and Hayt is released from Bijaz's control and remembers nothing of his programming. Hayt again says that he himself is Bajaz's target, which Bijaz admits. Hayt asks what Bijaz would do with him. He replies, 'A kindness."
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    Re: Chapter 20

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2012 11:16

    Revised, clean.
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    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
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    Re: Chapter 20

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Sep 2014 15:38

    A few passages here raise questions that I don't have the answers to yet. Sorry for the long post, but I feel like this is a very difficult chapter to fully grasp.

    Dune Messiah wrote:"Muad'dib has charged me to question you to determine what it is the
    Tleilaxu intend you to do here," Hayt said.
    "Tleilaxu, Tleilaxu," the dwarf sang. "I am the Tleilaxu, you dolt! For that
    matter, so are you."


    At first glance this is a lead-in to us being told that they're both gholas, and therefore 'of' the Tleilaxu. But something in my mind won't let it go at just that. We know that Hayt is Duncan's regrown flesh, so it can't mean that they are both literally Tleilaxu who were regrown, although Bizaj may well be that. But what exactly might this passage imply? We know from Scytale that Face Dancers possess sympatico, and that this allows them to think as their victims would and to sympathize with them; might this mean also that the Tleilaxu espouse a deep belief in living irony, that they create beings that are both friend and foe, to both themselves and others? Recall that Bijaz mentioned earlier fearing the one who thinks not but wants his body (aka his previous self), and yet we know from Hayt that gholas want their memories; in this way a ghola is both the compatriot to but also the enemy of his previous self. Is this a way of the Tleilaxu showing us what we learn already through Paul, that a man's best ally and worst enemy is himself, that the irony in the universe is that chains and bondage are always self-imposed? If so, a ghola would be a good living example of this, and if this principle is at the heart of Tleilaxu philosophy then it would make sense to call the two gholas the Tleilaxu (as in, incarnations of their beliefs, some kind of splendid blend of being tools and works of art).

    Dune Messiah wrote:Hayt found he didn't like the look of secret repose beneath the dwarf's
    expression. "Perhaps I only seek the future," he said.
    "Well spoken," Bijaz said. "Now we know each other. When two thieves meet
    they need no introduction.
    "
    "So we're thieves," Hayt said. "What do we steal?"
    "Not thieves, but dice," Bijaz said. "And you came here to read my spots. I,
    in turn, read yours. And lo! You have two faces!"


    Might I be correct in assuming that Bijaz is referring to the fact that the current personality of a ghola has, in essence, stolen the body of the previous personality that inhabited it? Duncan's comment of seeking only the future is exactly what a personality in possession of someone else's body would want to do - to go on existing, to not be annihilated and have to give the body over to the person to whom it belonged. Since no ghola had ever retrieved its memories it was likely unknown whether the new personality would be destroyed or not, and so there would be an instinctive thief-like fear of giving back what was taken.

    Dune Messiah wrote:"To attack Alia is to attack her brother," Hayt said.
    "That is so clear it is difficult to see," Bijaz said. "In truth, Emperor
    and sister are one person back to back, one being half male and half female
    ."
    "That is a thing we've heard said by the Fremen of the deep desert," Hayt
    said. "And those are the ones who've revived the blood sacrifice to Shai-hulud.
    How is it you repeat their nonsense?"
    "You dare say nonsense?" Bijaz demanded. "You, who are both man and mask?
    Ahh, but the dice cannot read their own spots. I forget this. And you are doubly
    confused because you serve the Atreides double-being. Your senses are not as
    close to the answer as your mind is."


    This passage is the hardest for me. We know that Paul and Alia have some sort of bond, such as we saw in Dune when she left him some kind of prescient graffiti message to read. It seems that maybe they have some stronger and remote-distance form of the mote-connection that RM's have when sharing, or such as exists during the tau orgy. But this passage seems to go further than that and I'm not sure what it means. Might it just mean that they share the same OM (although Alia actually has more, since she has Ramallo's memories too), the same prescient visions, and have the same Atreides code? Even so I'm not sure this fully explains Bijaz's comment, which sounds more than just an idle suggestion.

    Dune Messiah wrote:Bijaz nodded, eyes drooping as though tiring. Then: "He will be tempted ...
    and in his distraction, you will move close. In the instant, you will strike!
    Two gholas, not one! That is what our masters demand!" The dwarf cleared his
    throat, nodded once more, said: "Speak."


    I really don't know what this means. Can it mean that the Tleilaxu want to make gholas of both Paul and Chani? Or are the two Paul and Hayt?

    Dune Messiah wrote:"And if you're not yet close enough to strike, speak of how much the
    Tleilaxu admire what he has taught them about the possibilities of religion.
    Tell him the Tleilaxu have a department of religious engineering, shaping
    religions to particular needs."


    I won't mention details, for but those that have read HoD and CH:D this passage may be of interest. Bijaz's comment here may allude to the very start of something serious among the Tleilaxu, which only begins in Paul's time.

    Dune Messiah wrote:"You think yourself free to sneer and disobey me," Bijaz said. He cocked his
    head slyly to one side. "Don't deny it . . ."
    "They made you well, little animal," Hayt said.
    "And you as well," the dwarf said. "You will tell him to hurry. Flesh decays
    and her flesh must be preserved in a cryological tank."


    This has to be a reference to the gom jabbar test. Perhaps the Tleilaxu have experimented with ways to change an animal into a human. Perhaps even their work with gholas is an experiment in seeing if someone who used to be human who is brought back as an animal can be made human through awakening of the previous life. I take the reason that both of them are animals is because they have been trained and wired in such a way that they don't have full self-determination, whereas a human has full self-determination and can always make choices with will alone. I wonder if individuals, such as Feyd, who'd been seeded with deep BG commands (such as could paralyze them briefly) would be called fully human...
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