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Chapter 23

Posted: 12 Feb 2008 21:36
by Freakzilla
There was a man so wise,
He jumped into
A sandy place
And burnt out both his eyes!
And when he knew his eyes were gone,
He offered no complaint.
He summoned up a vision
And made himself a saint.

-Children's Verse from History of Muad'dib

Paul is standing outside Sietch Tabr, trying not to think about Chani, noting the changes since he was last there through his oracular vision. An aid comes up behind him with a clipboard and hands it to Paul, telling him what it is. Paul snaps at him, "I can read!", signs it and hands it back. The aid flees in fear. He feels like going back inside and telling the aids to worship all life if they really need something to worship. They wouldn't understand. He wishes he could stop the vision. The ghola joins him outside and tells him everything about Bijaz and his violent compulsion. Paul says there will be no violence from Duncan. Hayt calls Paul "Young Master" and Paul asks him to do a human thing to release the Duncan within. Paul has gaps in his vision now but remains unstopable. Paul hears someone cry out "Usul". A Fedaykin comes out then and tells him that Chani is dead, he says, "She's gone". The words activate Hayt's compultion to kill Paul and he resists, holding his knife up ready to strike. Duncan's memories come flooding back and they go inside. The Fedaykin tells Paul he has two children and Paul stumbles. He's confused, his visions only showed him one baby. They Fedaykin notices Duncan's knife is bared and Paul orders him to put it away. As they reach the birthing room, Paul's vision goes black and he stumbles again, almost falling. Harah tells him he has twins, a boy and a girl, the vision had only shown him the girl. Paul says goodbye to Chani and Alia brings in Lichna. Paul says she's not Lichna, but a Face Dancer. Alia insists he hear what she has to say. Lichna introduces himself as Scytale and asks if the ghola is now Duncan Idaho. Paul says he is and asks Duncan if he would kill the Tleilaxu and he agrees with supressed rage. Scytale moves to the babies and threatens to kill them if anyone moves. Scytale offers Paul a restored ghola of Chani and asks Paul what he would pay for this. Paul says he can't bargain with what he cannot see and asks Alia to do it for him. She asks for time to think but Scytale warns that Chani's flesh cannot wait. Paul begins to see through the eyes of one of his babies. Scytale suggest the Atreides turn over all their CHOAM holdings. Using the sight from the baby, Paul carefully removes his crysknife from it's sheath and measures out the angle and distance then throws the knife into Scytale's eye. He's dead before he hits the floor. Paul's son talks to his mind and tells him that he is aware. His son has memories of all his male ancestors. Paul wonders if it was Chani's hunger for spice or his genetics. Paul names the babies Leto and Ghanima. Duncan takes Paul to his quarters where Bijaz comes to see them. Bijaz is excited that Duncan has his memories back because now he can have all his pasts back. Bijaz offers to restore Chani again and Paul has Duncan kill him. Paul tells Duncan he had no choice in all of this, he meddled with all the possible futures he could until they created him. As he spoke his vision finally leaves him, overwhelming his his mind with infinite possibilities.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 15 Dec 2009 21:42
by SpacemanSpiff
Foregive me for posting in such an old thread but i just finished this book for the first time and something I was wondering. Paul knew Chani was going to die in childbirth. Why would he not want to be with her when she passed.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 16 Dec 2009 10:35
by Freakzilla
SpacemanSpiff wrote:Foregive me for posting in such an old thread...


The reading group is meant for people to post in at their own pace as they read the books, so don't worry about that.

... but i just finished this book for the first time and something I was wondering. Paul knew Chani was going to die in childbirth. Why would he not want to be with her when she passed.



That's not the way the Vision went! Keep in mind, Paul was blind and using his prescience to guide him through life. He could not deviate lest he create a future worse than the one he has envisioned.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 16 Dec 2009 12:01
by lotek
one of my favourite chapters of DM, first awakening of a ghola, and what ghola! Duncan Idaho!
It also gives a real human insight in how Paul is trapped in his vision, after all he lets his love die to save the future so that tells us something about the alternatives.
And then the fact that the vision showed only one baby proves the limit of prescience and to me casts a doubt on wether he did make the right choice

Is there an explanation was to why he only saw one baby btw?

And the knife aim through the eyes of baby Leto? cool!!

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 16 Dec 2009 12:29
by inhuien
lotek wrote:Is there an explanation was to why he only saw one baby btw?
I think the accepted wisdom is that one Oracle can not see another in a prescient vision.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 16 Dec 2009 12:40
by Freakzilla
Yes, same reason he couldn't see Guild Navigators.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 18 Jan 2010 12:34
by Eyes High
Freakzilla wrote:
SpacemanSpiff wrote:Foregive me for posting in such an old thread...


The reading group is meant for people to post in at their own pace as they read the books, so don't worry about that.

... but i just finished this book for the first time and something I was wondering. Paul knew Chani was going to die in childbirth. Why would he not want to be with her when she passed.



That's not the way the Vision went! Keep in mind, Paul was blind and using his prescience to guide him through life. He could not deviate lest he create a future worse than the one he has envisioned.



I wondered the same thing -- and how could he being with her as she died create a separate future, unless he would be more vulnerable to the suggestion of creating a ghoula out of her flesh.

I could fathom the hard choice to sacrifice the one you love for the greater good, but the need to be away from her in her last moment...that was harder for me comprehend.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 18 Jan 2010 12:38
by Freakzilla
And what he saw was a time nexus within this cave, a boiling of
possibilities focused here, wherein the most minute action--the wink of an eye,
a careless word, a misplaced grain of sand--moved a gigantic lever across the
known universe.

~Dune

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 18 Jan 2010 22:08
by Eyes High
How did I miss that? :oops:

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 21 May 2012 11:12
by Freakzilla
Revised.

Re: Chapter 23

Posted: 15 Sep 2014 22:59
by georgiedenbro
Imagine the shagrin of the Tleilaxu had their intelligence failed to report to them that Hayt had recovered his memories, and how. We assume that since people would be calling him "Duncan" after that they could piece it together, but the verification that Bijaz's work had been successful as a trigger would be just as important to know.

Bijaz, himself, didn't intend to die, although it was foreseeable, but Scytale all but signed his death warrant by taking the babies hostage. I understand the plan to tempt Alia with reviving Paul, which could conceivably have worked, but did Scytale really think that Paul would agree to have Chani revived? But perhaps I'm underestimating how tempted Paul was to accept.

I just wonder, in the long-term, how much the Tleilaxu really needed to bend Paul to their whims, compared with passing on the secrets of reviving gholas. I'd have thought that once Duncan was revived the #1 priority would be to evacuate Scytale the hell out, or at least Bijaz. But they seemed really hell-bent on the Chani plan. Considering the amazing subtlety in Scytale's thinking through the book, this seems to have been a comparatively block-headed decision on his part.

Maybe pursuing the Chani angle was the only possible way to get out of there alive anyhow, since Paul insisted he be present at the birth?