Chapter 06

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Chapter 06

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 21:26

"Once more the drama begins."
-The Emperor Paul Muad'dib on his ascension to the Lion Throne

Alia spies on Paul and Stilgar from above as they meet Edric, the new Guild Ambassador in Paul's great reception hall. She recognizes Duncan Idaho among the Guild entourage from other memory. Edric offers Paul the ghola of Idaho, now called Hayt, as a gift. Hayt is pleased by the sound of Paul's voice but doesn't remember his past. Some things are oddly familiar to him, though. Paul wonders what, if any, debt he owes his former trainer and friend for saving his life and what the Tleilaxu have hidden in the ghola. Edric informs Paul that Hayt has been trained as a Zensunni Mentat in an effort to improve his abilities with the sword. Paul senses danger in the currents of time around Edric. Hayt says he finds pleasure in looking for signs of his past in those around him and he sees such signs in Stilgar. Paul tells him that they will keep his Tleilaxu name. Hayt steps back and Alia wonders how he knew the interview was over. Paul accepts and sends Edric's envoy away, notifying him that they will meet in private later, to discuss, among other things, the presence of RM Mohiam on the Highliner and his removal of her from it. Paul asks Hayt to remain and discovers from him that his intended purpose is to destroy him and asks to be sent away. Paul refuses. Alia feels attraction for the Idaho ghola but also feels danger to herself from him.

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Re: Chapter 06

Postby merkin muffley » 22 May 2010 09:49

These scenes with Paul's court are some of my favorite in any of the Dune novels, but there's one thing in this chapter that bothers me, and it's the suggestion that Dr. Yueh was engineered by the Tleilaxu to be a traitor:

"They sold killer mentats. They produced killer medics, overcoming the Suk inhibitions against the taking of human life, to do it."

I thought that the whole point was that the Baron discovered he could use Yueh's love for Wanna as the lever long enough to move a planet, to subvert the Imperial conditioning. I don't think it's as powerful if the Tleilaxu engineered him to be a traitor.

I also thought that Yueh was the first Suk doctor whose Imperial conditioning failed, which made him above suspicion. I suppose you could say that a medic is different from a doctor, but who else but Yueh can this possibly refer to. They're talking about the Suk school imperial conditioning here, which was impossible to subvert in Dune. I also don't like the fact that "medics" is plural, as if it had been done many times before.

Dune Messiah is one of my favorite books, and I've probably read it more times than I've read Dune. I am, personally, interested in the ideas in DM more than any of the books (which is highly subjective). There are a couple things though, possibly in the editing, that seem slightly wonky, like Bronso of Ix's being on trial during Muad'Dib's reign for a history that's supposed to be written after Muad'Dib's reign). And maybe the transition from chapter 5 to chapter 6, from a scene with Paul's court talking about the Guildsman arriving to a scene with Paul's court receiving the Guildsman, is a little bit awkward.



By the way, I think chapter 4 has mistakenly been double-posted as chapter 5. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think there's a chapter where Paul observes the pilgrims, Irulan is humiliated, Korba reviles the Guild and almost suggests Muad'Dib isn't fully Fremen, and Irulan is relieved because Paul hasn't "seen" a Steersman. Again, I don't have the book in front of me, I'm actually listening to the audiobook at the moment, and I risk being an asshole complaining about the massive undertaking that is the Reading Group.
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Re: Chapter 06

Postby Freakzilla » 22 May 2010 10:11

merkin muffley wrote:These scenes with Paul's court are some of my favorite in any of the Dune novels, but there's one thing in this chapter that bothers me, and it's the suggestion that Dr. Yueh was engineered by the Tleilaxu to be a traitor:

"They sold killer mentats. They produced killer medics, overcoming the Suk inhibitions against the taking of human life, to do it."

I thought that the whole point was that the Baron discovered he could use Yueh's love for Wanna as the lever long enough to move a planet, to subvert the Imperial conditioning. I don't think it's as powerful if the Tleilaxu engineered him to be a traitor.

I also thought that Yueh was the first Suk doctor whose Imperial conditioning failed, which made him above suspicion. I suppose you could say that a medic is different from a doctor, but who else but Yueh can this possibly refer to. They're talking about the Suk school imperial conditioning here, which was impossible to subvert in Dune. I also don't like the fact that "medics" is plural, as if it had been done many times before.


I can't explain the plural form of "medics" but the only way I can make sense of that line is that Piter was a BT creation and through him they overcame Dr. Yueh's Imperial Conditioning.

By the way, I think chapter 4 has mistakenly been double-posted as chapter 5. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think there's a chapter where Paul observes the pilgrims, Irulan is humiliated, Korba reviles the Guild and almost suggests Muad'Dib isn't fully Fremen, and Irulan is relieved because Paul hasn't "seen" a Steersman. Again, I don't have the book in front of me, I'm actually listening to the audiobook at the moment, and I risk being an asshole complaining about the massive undertaking that is the Reading Group.


I'll check on that, thanks.
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Re: Chapter 06

Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2010 14:11

My texts (book & file) have "a killer medic", singular:

[Alia] sensed the hidden perils in this gift then. This was a Tleilaxu thing. The Tleilaxu displayed a disturbing lack of inhibitions in what they created. Unbridled curiosity might guide their actions. They boasted they could make anything from the proper human raw material—devils or saints. They sold killer-mentats. They'd produced a killer medic, overcoming the Suk inhibitions against the taking of human life to do it. Their wares included willing menials, pliant sex toys for any whim, soldiers, generals, philosophers, even an occasional moralist.

It has been suggested before that this refers to Yueh, but if Yueh was meant, why wasn't he named? Just because Alia never knew him in person?

It's been about 15 years since Yueh's betrayal, enough time for word of it to spread. After learning that a thing is possible, maybe the BT decided to reproduce it. That would fit with the pride in their abilities (hubris?) which is the source of Alia's unease, no? :)

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Re: Chapter 06

Postby merkin muffley » 22 May 2010 14:49

SandChigger wrote:My texts (book & file) have "a killer medic", singular:

They'd produced a killer medic



Audiobook. No actual book around. (Damn it. :doh: )


SandChigger wrote:It has been suggested before that this refers to Yueh, but if Yueh was meant, why wasn't he named? Just because Alia never knew him in person?

It's been about 15 years since Yueh's betrayal, enough time for word of it to spread. After learning that a thing is possible, maybe the BT decided to reproduce it. That would fit with the pride in their abilities (hubris?) which is the source of Alia's unease, no? :)


That definitely works and does fit into Alia's inner monologue. It's still a little bit odd to me to have a reference to overcoming Suk school conditioning without any reference to Yueh, or without mentioning it had been done before. A little bit misleading, maybe.

But I guess a "medic" is distinctly different from the kind of doctor Yueh was, and typically refers to somebody in the military, on the battlefield, associated with troops.
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Re: Chapter 06

Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2010 19:22

Yeah, the lack of any mention of Yueh is weird either way.

And there's always the possibility it was something FH missed in the editing. ;)

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Re: Chapter 06

Postby Freakzilla » 28 May 2010 23:36

Freakzilla wrote:
By the way, I think chapter 4 has mistakenly been double-posted as chapter 5. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think there's a chapter where Paul observes the pilgrims, Irulan is humiliated, Korba reviles the Guild and almost suggests Muad'Dib isn't fully Fremen, and Irulan is relieved because Paul hasn't "seen" a Steersman. Again, I don't have the book in front of me, I'm actually listening to the audiobook at the moment, and I risk being an asshole complaining about the massive undertaking that is the Reading Group.


I'll check on that, thanks.


Fixed. :oops:
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Re: Chapter 06

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Apr 2012 12:43

Revised
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Re: Chapter 06

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Aug 2014 11:35

Here's a passage I had to re-read several times in a row to figure out:

Dune Messiah wrote:"This is a place where a man draws away from people," Hayt said. "It speaks
of such power that one can contemplate it comfortably only in the remembrance
that all things are finite. Did my Lord's oracular powers plot his course into
this place?"
Paul drummed his fingers against the throne's arms. The mentat sought data,
but the question disturbed him. "I came to this position by strong decisions . .
. not always out of my other . . . abilities."
"Strong decisions," Hayt said. "These temper a man's life. One can take the
temper from fine metal by heating it and allowing it to cool without quenching
."
"Do you divert me with Zensunni prattle?" Paul asked.
"Zensunni has other avenues to explore, Sire, than diversion and display."


The highlighted passage is the one that concerned me, purely because I didn't know what Hayt was saying and he is generally very economical with his comments. Upon close inspection I take its literal meaning to be this: "Strong decisions can shape a life's course into a fine and well-crafted path. But the quality of that path can be destroyed if its heat is left to peter out slowly instead of being quenched quickly in another strong decision."

I think this is a very important passage because it shows that Hayt knows more than we'd have expected. In fact we don't know what to expect - he shows up at Paul's door direct from the Tleilaxu, and we don't know what they've told him or what information he has. But it seems to me that here Hayt is bringing up the very topic that's been on Paul's mind during DM so far - that Paul's course is becoming muddied, that any purpose his Empire had is slowly cooling, and that the situation can't be solved by waiting for something to just happen. I think he's telling Paul that he'll have to do something if he wants his actions to continue to have meaning. Paul had been considering, in Chapter 03, ways he might stop the jihad, stop the fate upon which he'd been set, and to escape from what seemed like a trap into which he had been thrust by his use of oracular power. I get the distinct sense that Hayt is somehow is aware of all this, perhaps in a general basis, and that he even sees himself as being part of Paul's larger trap.

To be more explicit: I think this is a passage where Hayt tells Paul what he must do in order to escape the Tleilaxu trap, thus fulfilling the code whereby the Tleilaxu always provide a means of escape to their victims. We will see later on in the book how Paul's actions reflect the advice given to him here. But Hayt's comment seems to suggest the general way in which Paul should end his reign - in a swift quenching, rather than a slow cooling, and a deliberate and calculated quenching at that.
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