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    Chapter 09

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      ʙᴏᴏᴋ ᴛᴡᴏ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴜɴᴇ ᴄʜʀᴏɴɪᴄʟᴇꜱ

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    Chapter 09

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 21:28

    The most dangerous game in the universe is to govern from an oracular base. We
    do not consider ourselves wise enough or brave enough to play that game. The
    measures detailed here for regulation in lesser matters are as near as we dare
    venture to the brink of government. For our purposes, we borrow a definition
    from the Bene Gesserit and we consider the various worlds as gene pools, sources
    of teachings and teachers, sources of the possible. Our goal is not to rule, but
    to tap these gene pools, to learn, and to free ourselves from all restraints
    imposed by dependency and government.

    -"The Orgy as a Tool of Statecraft," Chapter Three of The Steersman's Guild

    This is Edric's audience with Paul. Scytale is present too. They make small talk about how and where Duke Leto and Barron Harkonnen died. Earlier, a troop of face dancers had performed for Paul's court. Paul questions the Guild's intentions, pointing out that the Ghola believes he was intended to destroy him. Edric questions if it is possible to destroy a god but Paul asks who says he's a god. Edric says his worshippers do and accuses Paul of conspiring to make a god of himself. Paul thinks back on alternate timeline where he didn't accept godhood that were much worse and asks Edric if he questions his prescience which angers Stilgar. Edric is obviously trained in language and the tricks of statecraft but he is trying Paul's patience, Stilgar comments that he's had men executed for less. Paul concludes that Edric is speaking for the benifit of Stilgar and the guards in the room, maybe even Scytale. He tells Edric that he did not seek to become a god, it was thrust upon him, to which Edric retorts, why not renounce it. Paul tells he it is because Alia is a goddess and urges caution with her, she could kill him with a glance. Stilgar nods agreement. Paul signals for the end of the audience and orders Stilgar not to kill Edric. Scytale tell Paul that some cling to imperialism because it unifies them in the infinity of space and that maybe they cling to religion for the same reason, then pushes Edric's tank out of the room. While conversing with Stilgar afterwards, Paul concludes that his enemies are setting him up to destroy himself, but he can do nothing else because the alternatives he's seen in his visions are far worse. Korba enters with some histories Paul wants Stilgar to view. Paul compares himself with leaders of our times and wonders if anyone will ever surpass him. He wonders if Hitler thought the exact same thing. Korba informs Paul that Chani, who is observiing the reception, now being hosted by Alia, suspects that there are Sardaukar amongst the Guild entourage and have been trying to penetrate the keep. Paul orders the guard tightened and declares the party over.
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    Re: Chapter 08

    Postby Mandy » 07 Jul 2009 13:40

    Just finished this chapter and wanted to see what you think about it. Sometimes, when I don't exactly understand what is going on, I just keep on reading hoping that whatever it was will be explained.. then when it isn't, I've already moved on and usually forgotten about it until I read it again.

    In the last two pages of this chapter Stilgar becomes suspicious of Paul and moves closer to him so he can see his face, after Paul tells Korba to wait. I don't understand the significance of Paul asking Korba what time it is. I think the following paragraphs are a message from Paul to Stilgar, but I'm not sure what the message is. I know there's the bit where Paul says, "Some of my friends have forgotten they once were Fremen." That part of the message is obvious, but I get the feeling there's something else being conveyed that I'm missing.

    I had all of what I wanted to talk about in my head earlier, but it has kind of vanished now that I'm trying to put it into words. I'm hoping that maybe some others will join in this discussion and it'll help me sort it out :P
    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.
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    Re: Chapter 08

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2009 15:39

    Mandy! I'm so happy you visited the Reading Group! :D

    Mandy wrote:Just finished this chapter and wanted to see what you think about it. Sometimes, when I don't exactly understand what is going on, I just keep on reading hoping that whatever it was will be explained.. then when it isn't, I've already moved on and usually forgotten about it until I read it again.

    In the last two pages of this chapter Stilgar becomes suspicious of Paul and moves closer to him so he can see his face, after Paul tells Korba to wait.


    Stilgar is disturbed by Paul's recent behaivior, I don't think he suspected him of anything.

    I don't understand the significance of Paul asking Korba what time it is.


    I think he was tired.
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    Re: Chapter 09

    Postby Mandy » 28 Dec 2011 14:08

    Thinking about Korba more makes me feel a bit sorry for him. How difficult it must be to operate a religious bureaucracy when God is still a living breathing human. Must be hard to maintain all that religiosity when your god might fart in your general direction.

    The party's over, Stil.
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    Re: Chapter 09

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Dec 2011 14:12

    Especially when your god and his sister taunt you, huh?
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    Re: Chapter 09

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Apr 2012 12:46

    Revised, cleaned.
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    Re: Chapter 09

    Postby georgiedenbro » 27 Aug 2014 01:41

    I, too, wondered about Paul asking about the time. I think Paul knew what time it was, and wanted the words "Almost midnight, Sire," to be spoken by Korba so Stilgar could hear them; this thought is rounded out later by "The party's over, Stil." I think that both of these phrases are subtle messages to Stilgar that Paul's party, so to speak, is nearing to a close, and that the time of his reign approaches midnight. We might even think back to Cinderella, who at the time of midnight returns to her true form, and her royal carriage becomes a pumpkin once more. The spell ends. I think this is another of several hints we've seen so far that Paul not only intends to find a way out for himself, but that it's coming soon.

    A good chunk of this chapter seems to be about how leaders are powerful because of their followers, not themselves. Edric hints at Paul's godhood being a reality as a result of the belief of Paul's followers, not as a result of any properties Paul himself possesses. Scytale then opens up the heart of the matter, that followers wish to be unified one way or another, and will utilize a leader or a religion to give them purpose. This dangerous truth seems to be one Paul had been considering, as he had asked Korba to bring historical records for Stilgar to study with regards to ancient Earth. Paul's comparison of himself with Ghengis Khan and to Hitler echoes Scytale's comment, which is that the only thing making Paul powerful are his followers and his armies. He does not do most of the actual killing himself, although others do it in his name.

    Dune Messiah wrote:"No other ruler ever had your powers," Korba argued.
    "Who would dare challenge you? Your legions control the known universe and all the -"
    "The legions control," Paul said. "I wonder if they know this."
    "You control your legions, Sire," Stilgar interrupted,
    and it was obvious from the tone of his voice that he
    suddenly felt his own position in that chain of command, his
    own hand guiding all that power.


    If Paul is a god, based on the amount who follow him, then what is Stilgar, who nearly as many follow?

    Paul reminds Stilgar that he is a Fremen; I think Paul sees him as being a greater sort of man who doesn't deserve to devolve into being Paul's puppet as was the danger earlier in council. Paul even humiliates Korba just so Stilgar can see what he might become should he too blindly follow Paul. Stilgar's gift was always doing what was best for the tribe; he followed Paul for this reason. I think Paul wants to remind him of that obligation to the tribe, and to understand the dangers of following one man, rather than one's own judgement. We see Paul admiring Stilgar when he finally does begin taking stock of Paul's intentions. Paul had intended from the start of the chapter to make Stilgar doubt him, to force Stilgar to return to using his own mind for himself.

    Finally, there is an interesting bit where Paul cannot imagine there being a greater massacre than his jihad. He then wonders whether Hitler thought the same, and guesses that he did. This seems to directly suggest that there may be a far greater bloodbath looming sometime in the future, one that Paul dare not even contemplate. This isn't the first time in the book such a terrible future possibility has been brought up by Paul.
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