Page 1 of 1

Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Feb 2008 17:46
by Freakzilla
These are illusions of popular history which a successful religion must promote:
Evil men never prosper; only the brave deserve the fair; honesty is the best
policy; actions speak louder than words; virtue always triumphs; a good deed is
its own reward; any bad human can be reformed; religious talismans protect one
from demon possession; only females understand the ancient mysteries; the rich
are doomed to unhappiness . . .

-From the Instruction Manual: Missionaria Protectiva

Muriz has six men bound in a cave, his son, Assan Tariq nearby. As a rite of manhood for the Cast Out of Shulock, Muriz has Assan kill the six men. They were pilgrams who stumbled upon Jacurutu while seeking the old ways. Muriz instructs Assan not to tell The Preacher of this.

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 01 Jun 2012 11:27
by Freakzilla
No revisions.

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 09 Oct 2014 13:45
by georgiedenbro
Children of Dune wrote:"Among the Cast Out we have a special test for manhood," Muriz said. "One
day my son will be a judge in Shuloch. We must know that he can act as he must.
Our judges cannot forget Jacurutu and our day of despair. Kralizec, the Typhoon
Struggle, lives in our hearts.
" It was all spoken with the flat intonation of ritual.


This is a strange passage. I won't comment on what the Typhoon Struggle means, since a first time reader isn't meant to know, but isn't it peculiar Jacurutu should know about it? Might we safely assume that the Preacher told them about it and convinced them to work with him? The reason this passage is potentially confusing is because the fall of Jacurutu is mentioned almost in the same breath as the Typhoon Struggle, making it sound like they are related to each other. I will say no more, but I think veteran readers will see what I'm getting at here.

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 12 Oct 2014 11:27
by Naïve mind
The name could come from Fremen mythology ...

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 12 Oct 2014 12:57
by georgiedenbro
Naïve mind wrote:The name could come from Fremen mythology ...


It certainly could, and maybe Leto II took their word for himself. But my question, then, is why that term is in Fremen mythology? Unless the Fremen had a real oracle sometime in the past give them some prophecies to pass down, how would the modern Fremen know of the Typhoon Struggle as being something that really will happen?

I think the simplest explanation is that Paul told them, rather than to suppose Paul wasn't the first oracle (which I think he was).

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Oct 2014 06:59
by Freakzilla
What religion DOESN'T have a judgment day prophecy (I'm sure there are some, but many do)? Could be a MP implant.

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Oct 2014 09:01
by georgiedenbro
Freakzilla wrote:What religion DOESN'T have a judgment day prophecy (I'm sure there are some, but many do)? Could be a MP implant.


Hehe, I've been deliberately unclear in order to avoid spoilers...but let's just say that while I wouldn't take Ragnarok or the Jehovah's Witness end of times seriously, I would suggest taking the Typhoon Struggle seriously. Even assuming the BG planted the term, how would they know that it would ever happen? The only two people who might know of (or even cause) such an event are Paul and...some other oracle. But the Fremen in this chapter seem to speak of the Typhoon Struggle with real knowledge that it's a real thing that is coming. I guess any dopes with a prophecy will be just as sure, but it's a different matter when you're actually right...

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Oct 2014 11:50
by Freakzilla
They didn't have to know it would happen, they only had to have people believe it. I know that's a spoiler but... maybe I'll go back and delete these post.

Or save that question for later in the book when it's revealed, maybe start a topic in General or The Golden Path?

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Oct 2014 15:39
by Naïve mind
georgiedenbro wrote:But my question, then, is why that term is in Fremen mythology?


Good question. Not many Typhoons on a planet without a sea.

Re: Chapter 12

Posted: 13 Oct 2014 22:39
by Sardaukar Capt
The Arabic word for Typhoon appears to be al-tufan. Knowing Frank's penchant for using Arabic in Dune and all the major religious influences including the Koran, its worth noting that al-tufan is referenced with Noah's Flood from what I Googled. Anyone more knowledgeable in Arabic or Islam please correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it interesting that "The Typhoon Struggles" being referred to several time in CoD appears to be the prophecy of basically a "reset" of humanity. And that is just what Leto II envisions in his Golden Path, a reset of humanity in order to save it. Noah's Flood was a biblical reset for humanity. So an interesting tie there. I wonder if that might have been Frank's intent on naming it the "Typhoon Struggles".