Chapter 24

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Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Feb 2008 17:51

When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to
your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because
that is according to my principles.

-Words of an ancient philosopher (Attributed by Harq al-Ada to one Louis
Veuillot)


Leto and Ghani sneak out of Sietch Tabr with a fruit basket concealing a Fremket, maula pistol, crysknife and the new robes from Farad'n. They mingle with the children in the orchard and make sure they're seen. Once away, they change into the new robes, put on the weapons and fremkits. They make their way between dunes across the open sand to The Attendant. Ghani anticipates attack soon. Leto computes that it will ba a predatory animal and Ghani corrects him, she thinks it will be two, to which he agrees. Leto's ancestral memories weigh heavily on him, he wishes he could flee his own consciousness. He knew what was going to happen. He was either going to be killed or pretend to be killed and Ghani would return, hypnotized into believing he was really dead. He's tempted to use his prescience but decides the threat of an absolute, unchanging future is too risky. After they see and are seen by the tigers, they go down into the rock cleft he had shown to Stilgar.

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Not_Your_Friend
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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 07 Jul 2011 15:39

I wonder how Wensicia's Sardaukar knew the twins were going to be at The Attendant on just this night?

The entire plan seems hinged on a convoluted convergance that they can smuggle the Laza tigers near Sietch Tabr and the twins will be alone with the animals and they will be wearing the robes.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 07 Jul 2011 17:24

A traitor, I suppose; even then, the guards were quadrupled and they still got away unknown to The Attendant.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 07 Jul 2011 21:34

Not_Your_Friend wrote:The entire plan seems hinged on a convoluted convergance that they can smuggle the Laza tigers near Sietch Tabr and the twins will be alone with the animals and they will be wearing the robes.

You're right, it seems like a weak plot at best. I can forgive the location, allow a few days for the twins next field trip, and hope that the clothes weren't absolutely nessesary for targeting, but that's only three possible failure points- Winnie should've had better advice.
It seems the only reason it worked at all was because Leto & Ghani wanted it that way, how many days before had Leto brought Stilgar to The Attendant?

While we're on this chapter, asking questions with speculative answers, I always wondered about how the tigers were kept while waiting to perform their function. Easy enough, I guess, to bribe the guild for transport but how do you teach a pair of big cats to walk without rhythm? Were they sedated for the wait?
I'd like to know more about the tiger cage. The hutch has to house two large cats for transport and keep them alive & hidden while waiting in the desert heat close to Tabr on Arrakis.

Spoiler Alert!
A traitor was involved and could help with the location and timing, it would be interesting to know how Corrino agents got to him.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Serkanner » 08 Jul 2011 04:34

I forgot his name, but when Ghani returned to Sietch Tabr she killed the traitor.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 08 Jul 2011 08:54

D Pope wrote:I can forgive the location, allow a few days for the twins next field trip, and hope that the clothes weren't absolutely nessesary for targeting, but that's only three possible failure points- Winnie should've had better advice.

While we're on this chapter, asking questions with speculative answers, I always wondered about how the tigers were kept while waiting to perform their function. Easy enough, I guess, to bribe the guild for transport but how do you teach a pair of big cats to walk without rhythm? Were they sedated for the wait?
I'd like to know more about the tiger cage. The hutch has to house two large cats for transport and keep them alive & hidden while waiting in the desert heat close to Tabr on Arrakis.

Spoiler Alert!
A traitor was involved and could help with the location and timing, it would be interesting to know how Corrino agents got to him.


I wonder if the traitor was one of the guards Stilgar appointed? Even then I wonder how he's so capable to track the twins successfully when everyone else was dumpedas if they were a bunch of chumps?

Good questions about the tigers.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Serkanner » 08 Jul 2011 09:10

The tigers weren't on the sand but deployed on the rocks ... no need to walk without rythem.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 08 Jul 2011 09:14

Yeah, but how did they get there? Straight dropped in by 'thopter? The Fremen should know of that, even if they are silk shirt Fremen at this point.

That would leave a desert crossing.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Hadi Benotto » 08 Jul 2011 09:29

The magic of Frank... he doesn't spell everything out and leaves some things to the imagination!
No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jul 2011 09:48

Serkanner wrote:I forgot his name, but when Ghani returned to Sietch Tabr she killed the traitor.


Palimbasha?
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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Serkanner » 08 Jul 2011 14:31

Freakzilla wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I forgot his name, but when Ghani returned to Sietch Tabr she killed the traitor.


Palimbasha?


That's the one. I am dreadful at remembering names.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Jul 2011 17:33

Hadi Benotto wrote:The magic of Frank... he doesn't spell everything out and leaves some things to the imagination!

Agreed. At this point it may be fun to wonder, but it really wasn't an important aspect of the story, so he left it out. Frank does a great job of creating the illusion of activity without ever spelling it out in pain-staking, repetitive detail.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2011 19:02

Not_Your_Friend wrote:I wonder if the traitor was one of the guards Stilgar appointed? Even then I wonder how he's so capable to track the twins successfully when everyone else was dumpedas if they were a bunch of chumps?

Keep reading, some questions are answered, some hinted at, and some are open to speculation. You don't really want to spoil the rest of the book, do you?

About the tigers;
We already know they're cyborgs, I doubt that it's a great leap to think that their implants could extend to a 'sleep' mode to keep them quiet till needed.
I also think that it's possible with such technology to build a cage that could be buried in the sand (not too deep) & keep them alive.
I doubt that they would've been stashed in the rocks (not impossible) but not too far out- it was rare to see worms around Tabr in those days but one came anyway. Unless the traitor had the bad luck of releasing his tigers in front of a worm that just happened to be there, I expect there was time enough to do the deed before a worm came.
I'm not sure the trator had to do much in the way of directing the tigers. (tracking the twins) Once the twins crossed the quanat, there wasn't much else for the tigers to find.
The twins were seen in a specific area, headed in a particular direction, the traitor & his minions would've been waiting for such news. Even if the tigers were stored on the opposite side of Tabr, it wouldn't have taken them long to get to the kill zone.

The weak points are the robes and the delivery of the tigers.
Perhaps Winnie thought that a gift from the Corrinos was too important not to wear. I'm thinking of all the awful fathers day ties that dads wear so as not to offend their children
Perhaps Palimbasha bribed/distracted the night watch in the area of the tigers arrival.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jul 2011 19:07

You forget Leto's prescience, he wanted this to happen. He walked them into it. They put the Corrino cloaks on on purpose.
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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2011 19:09

Nekhrun wrote:
Hadi Benotto wrote:The magic of Frank... he doesn't spell everything out and leaves some things to the imagination!

Agreed. At this point it may be fun to wonder, but it really wasn't an important aspect of the story, so he left it out. Frank does a great job of creating the illusion of activity without ever spelling it out in pain-staking, repetitive detail.

I agree completely!
It is fun to think about such things but if my speculation detracts from the story, i'll cease immediately.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2011 19:11

Freakzilla wrote:You forget Leto's prescience, he wanted this to happen. He walked them into it. They put the Corrino cloaks on on purpose.

Oops! Got ahead of me there. No Freak, I mentioned that before;
It seems the only reason it worked at all was because Leto & Ghani wanted it that way, how many days before had Leto brought Stilgar to The Attendant?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jul 2011 19:23

I've been wanting to say throughout this thread, it was a messiah perfect storm...

The legends were planted.

Jessica was a MP pro.

Paul was, well... the KH.

The Fremen read into it.

Whatever else you can add...
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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Jul 2011 21:38

D Pope wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Hadi Benotto wrote:The magic of Frank... he doesn't spell everything out and leaves some things to the imagination!

Agreed. At this point it may be fun to wonder, but it really wasn't an important aspect of the story, so he left it out. Frank does a great job of creating the illusion of activity without ever spelling it out in pain-staking, repetitive detail.

I agree completely!
It is fun to think about such things but if my speculation detracts from the story, i'll cease immediately.

Not at all, that's one of the reasons for a discussion board. Now we can fill each other in on how we see the details playing out.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2011 01:17

I pretty much blew my wad with 'about the tigers,' what do you think?
The more I think about that tiger hutch, the more complicated it gets.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Nekhrun » 09 Jul 2011 07:33

D Pope wrote:I pretty much blew my wad with 'about the tigers,' what do you think?
The more I think about that tiger hutch, the more complicated it gets.

I think it's a reasonable assumption. That's one of the details I never spent much time imagining. I do find it likely that they were dropped off in the rocks and not running across the open sand :wink:

Since by this time, things were pretty much proceeding by Leto's design, it would be hard for things to happen any other way than what he planned (what with the whole passing through the narrow door in the vision of time thing).

The tiger plot is probably one of Frank's more intense action sequences now that I think about it.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2011 21:03

I'll agree with that.
Wasn't the 'narrow door' idea always associated with the now?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Nekhrun » 09 Jul 2011 22:10

D Pope wrote:I'll agree with that.
Wasn't the 'narrow door' idea always associated with the now?

The now can't happen any other way when you're the one choosing the path.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jul 2011 09:03

OK, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Many of these questions are answered later in the book.

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Re: Chapter 24

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Jun 2012 10:40

Worms are rare at this point, only seen in the deep desert. I don't think that was an issue.
Leto isn't using conscious prescience at this point, his actions are based on a prescient dream.



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