Chapter 54

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Freakzilla
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Chapter 54

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jul 2008 10:34

Thou didst divide the sand by thy strength; Thou breakest the heads of the
dragons in the desert. Yea, I behold thee as a beast coming up from the dunes;
thou hast the two horns of the lamb, but thou speakest as the dragon.

-Revised Orange Catholic Bible Arran 11:4

Leto can sense the threads of the future come together as a mighty rope and he feels as if the planet and the universe are his to do his bidding. He had summoned a worm by stamping his foot, using only his sandtrout membraned hands as maker hooks and rode north all night. The sandtrout have become part of him and he part of them, he knew his farther saw this but rejected it as too terrible. Prescience had killed Muad’dib, he passed into alam al-mythal while still alive rather than take this path, now there is only The Preacher. He waits to intercept him, his young guide and their worm on their way to Shuloch. The guide spots Leto and aims his worm at him but the worm comes to a halt a few meters from Leto. Leto orders Paul to spend the night there and Paul tells his guide to take the worm away and release it. Paul joins Leto atop his dune. Here the visions part. Paul begs him not to take this path but Leto tells him it is too late, his skin is not his own. The guide Tariq, senses the vision battle about to take place, Paul tells Leto he cannot control the future. One of them will be forced to act and in doing so choose a vision. Leto feels that Paul is right, trying to control the future only builds weapons with which the universe will destroy you. Leto has two advantages in this battle though, he has set out on a path of no return and accepted the terrible consequences. Paul still hoped for a way out and had made no final commitment. Tariq plants a pseudo-shield in the dune and starts backing away but Leto senses the ozone. Paul begs him not to but Leto snaps tariq’s neck and throws the pseudo-shield far to the South where they can hear a worm go into a frenzy then subside.

Paul can no loger see how Leto might control the future and senses the Golden Path. Leto tells Paul that he is here to give purpose to evolution and their lives. Pauls says he will take the vision away from Leto if he can. Leto says he will give humanity thousands of years of dormancy and stagnation, a lesson they will never forget. Leto gives him a choice between going back with him or not at all, Paul chooses not to return. Paul knows that he cannot win this battle of vision but hopes to destroy Leto’s one vision. Paul asks if Kralizec is necessary, Leto says it’s that or humanity will be extinguished. Paul admits that he did not see that possibility. Leto tells him that he thinks the Sisterhood suspects it, that is the only explaination for Jessica’s actions. Paul thinks that Muad’dib must be destroyed, only The Preacher can go on now.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Freakzilla
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Re: Chapter 54

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 10:41

Revised
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Fedaykin10
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Re: Chapter 54

Postby Fedaykin10 » 29 Nov 2015 02:35

I just finished this book for the first time, and I was slightly confused about some of the things that happened, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. What exactly did you think Paul meant when he said he accepted the Mahdinate for Chani, and how exactly does this relate back to Dune Messiah? It seems to me the implication is that in DM, Paul saw countless futures and strived to choose the one which would cause the least suffering (for everyone, or for Chani?), and this consequently meant accepting Alia's regency?

Also, why is Paul trying to oppose the Golden Path here? Earlier in the book, when Leto and Ghani are channelling their inner father and mother, Leto's inner Paul states:
My last vision has not yet come to pass . . . Would that not be reason enough to stay alive?

And later that the Golden Path is
The only possible vision.

So it seems from this that he strongly believes in the Golden Path, yet in this chapter he's clearly against it all and he's adamantly and desperately trying to stop Leto from it?? Is this due to the corruption caused at Jacurutu?

Lastly, what is the exact reason behind Paul's denial of undergoing the Golden Path himself? Is it just that he feared the personal implications of the Golden Path (such as no longer being human)? Or was it that he didn't see the extent of the necessity of the Golden Path (although the previous chapter that I referred to would seem to deny this) - I mean, he didn't see that Kralizec was necessary?

I really appreciate any answers or opinions that you guys can provide! And sorry for all the questions :D :D

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Re: Chapter 54

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2015 13:38

Fedaykin10 wrote:I just finished this book for the first time, and I was slightly confused about some of the things that happened, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. What exactly did you think Paul meant when he said he accepted the Mahdinate for Chani, and how exactly does this relate back to Dune Messiah? It seems to me the implication is that in DM, Paul saw countless futures and strived to choose the one which would cause the least suffering (for everyone, or for Chani?), and this consequently meant accepting Alia's regency?


I believe Paul is refering to the events in Dune here, not DM.

Also, why is Paul trying to oppose the Golden Path here? Earlier in the book, when Leto and Ghani are channelling their inner father and mother, Leto's inner Paul states:
My last vision has not yet come to pass . . . Would that not be reason enough to stay alive?

And later that the Golden Path is
The only possible vision.

So it seems from this that he strongly believes in the Golden Path, yet in this chapter he's clearly against it all and he's adamantly and desperately trying to stop Leto from it?? Is this due to the corruption caused at Jacurutu?

Lastly, what is the exact reason behind Paul's denial of undergoing the Golden Path himself? Is it just that he feared the personal implications of the Golden Path (such as no longer being human)? Or was it that he didn't see the extent of the necessity of the Golden Path (although the previous chapter that I referred to would seem to deny this) - I mean, he didn't see that Kralizec was necessary?


No. Paul admits in this chapter that he didn't see the extinction of humanity as a result of not choosing the Golden Path. To him it would have just been a very long, cruel lesson for humanity.

I really appreciate any answers or opinions that you guys can provide! And sorry for all the questions :D :D[/quote]
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

georgiedenbro
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Re: Chapter 54

Postby georgiedenbro » 01 Dec 2015 16:38

With regards to Paul accepting the Mahdinate, I think Freak's answer is correct.

In terms of Leto-as-Paul saying the Golden Path is the only possible vision, I'm not sure about this one. I re-read the book earlier this year and even still found it to have the most questions I didn't understand compared with the other books. The important thing to remember here is that Leto only has Paul's memories from when Leto was conceived, so anything Paul learned afterwards during the months of pregnancy would be unknown to Leto. Plus there's the time Paul spent in the years in between when he lacked visions. And even Jacurutu itself could have subverted his interpretation of his visions. As Freak mentioned Paul didn't see the extinction in his visions, which means he knew of the Golden Path but not of its necessity.

How to reconcile all this? I prefer to think that Jacurutu didn't subvert Paul outright. This leaves the idea that Paul saw the Golden Path as the only possible vision, but still as undesirable. He may have realized that any other path was bad, but that the Golden Path was unacceptable, and so his solution was to put out his eyes as it were and just walk away. I think Paul saw the inevitable grandeur of the Golden Path but not the need for it. In the scene you quoted there is this exchange:

"The Golden Path," she said. "It is not a good vision."
"It's the only possible vision."
"Alia has failed, then . . ."
"Utterly. You see the record of it."
"Your mother has returned too late." She nodded, and it was Chani's wise expression on the childish face of Ghanima. "Could there not be another vision? Perhaps if --"
"No, beloved. Not yet. This child cannot peer into the future yet and return safely."


Here Ghani-as-Chani asks whether there might not be a better or updated version of the vision (one that Leto II does eventually have at Jacurutu) that could justify the Golden Path. So her question and Paul's answer actually seem to indicate that Paul hadn't seen enough to make a final determination at the time of Leto's conception. In the present time, though, Paul would have had years to think about it more and maybe he decided that nothing could justify something so terrible. It's my view that as Emperor he was beholden to the tools of statecraft in what he could officially say, but as the Preacher he was free to go back to his Atreides roots and speak his mind. This change of persona may have been what Paul needed to reconfirm his principles and realize that the Golden Path was too evil to be allowed to happen. And if not for Leto's knowledge of the extinction Paul would have been correct. As it happens we've mentioned in other threads the possibility that Paul really was right and that the extinction was something that only became possible as a result of Leto II making the future. Paul didn't foresee Leto II, after all, so his visions wouldn't take into account his actions or influence. Under the assumption that there was to never have been a Leto II then Paul may well have seen the Golden Path as the single vision worth talking about even while knowing it should never be allowed to come to pass.
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Serkanner
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Re: Chapter 54

Postby Serkanner » 05 Dec 2015 19:16

georgiedenbro wrote: As it happens we've mentioned in other threads the possibility that Paul really was right and that the extinction was something that only became possible as a result of Leto II making the future. Paul didn't foresee Leto II, after all, so his visions wouldn't take into account his actions or influence. Under the assumption that there was to never have been a Leto II then Paul may well have seen the Golden Path as the single vision worth talking about even while knowing it should never be allowed to come to pass.


I find this a very powerful deduction from the books. And I agree with what you say. What I wonder about is did Frank actually think this far into this all as well?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Chapter 54

Postby machinor » 06 Jan 2016 06:29

I really like this quote.
And his father was right: trying for some ultimate control of the universe, you only built weapons with which the universe eventually defeated you.

The whole Dune-Saga condensed into one sentence.
"Oh, the devil will find work for idle hands to do."


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