they picked edric?!?!

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distrans
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they picked edric?!?!

Postby distrans » 19 Jan 2018 01:14

their existence actively threatened and they choose that their best interests are serviced by a representative obviously subservient to the tleilax and the gesserit?

why did the guild choose edric for this?

why are their only 9 threads about the guild here?

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Freakzilla
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jan 2018 11:40

I assume you're referring to the cabal against Paul in Dune Messiah. Why not Edric?

There probably aren't many topics on the Guild because they remain largely mysterious in the books.
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georgiedenbro
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Jan 2018 12:38

They needed an oracle to obscure the conspiracy, so it most likely follows that Edric is the most accomplished oracle they could afford. What he seems to sometimes lack in being quick on the uptake he mostly likely makes up for in being a really good cloaking device. I don't see him as being subservient, so much as willing to let others do the thinking at times when it will obtain him the desired result anyhow. I imagine that the Guild was pretty desperate at this point, so if that meant temporarily letting the BG and BT have a strong say in affairs they would accept it.

I agree with Freak, and think that the reason there isn't much to write about them is because there isn't all that much to them in general. They are pretty straightforward, and what Paul describes about them in Dune appears to be most of what there is to say on the matter: they are very control-oriented, logical, and efficient at balancing forces to make outcomes predictable. Once you know they desire predictability it seems to me that you know about as much about them as you need to. They are stuck in the pursuit of that goal, to a fault.
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distrans
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby distrans » 20 Feb 2018 19:16

I still find it striking that they can foresee paul as the problem and yet not offer an operative better than edric years later in attempt to thwart him

mabe the guild as a whole wasn't involved with the actions which too place...



I don't believe edric was acting with the guilds consent as he involved himself in the conspiracy

wonder how it was drawn into it in the first place...

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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Apr 2018 10:20

distrans wrote:I still find it striking that they can foresee paul as the problem and yet not offer an operative better than edric years later in attempt to thwart him


The Guild doesn't change. To them their 'best' is probably - from Paul's perspective - the most lame and predictable. Their entire ethos is about stability, and the most powerful navigator who studies their methods would likely also be the least adventurous and able to improvise. That is their fault. That Edric was potentially the best they had to offer is a testament to how inflexible and rooted in their ways there are. Based on what we learn in the last two books about the need to never be immobile and always improvising, we can look back on the Guild in the first three books and pretty easily conclude that they have become irrelevant and are useless. They are pretty much the opposite of being a group that can have any real effects on the universe after Paul came.
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Freakzilla
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Apr 2018 05:36

distrans wrote:wonder how it was drawn into it in the first place...


He was only involved to shield them with his prescience from Paul.
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pcqypcqy
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby pcqypcqy » 11 Jun 2018 23:33

I think Edric only appears to be useless as a counterpoint to demonstrate the sort of intellectual plane that Scytale and the BG normally operate on. To all normal people, Edric would appear to be all powerful and incredibly intelligent.

I think Edric and the Guild were full partners in the consipiracy, as it brought together the remaining non-imperial power bases in the universe in the Guild, BG, and BT (assuming that the Landsraad and Great Houses are generally redundant at this stage).

As someone mentioned above, I think the first few books (really just Dune) show how the Guild was once such a power, yet have been on the decline without realising. This is revealed with a sudden bang at the end of Dune. After that, they're harnessed and not all that powerful any more.

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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jun 2018 20:18

pcqypcqy wrote:As someone mentioned above, I think the first few books (really just Dune) show how the Guild was once such a power, yet have been on the decline without realising. This is revealed with a sudden bang at the end of Dune. After that, they're harnessed and not all that powerful any more.


Not entirely true. At the end of Dune, it is the Guild who appoints Paul Emperor, simply because he can destroy the spice and interstellar travel. The Guild still has a monopoly on space travel afterwards. They still enforce the Great Convention.
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pcqypcqy
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby pcqypcqy » 18 Jun 2018 21:22

Freakzilla wrote:
pcqypcqy wrote:As someone mentioned above, I think the first few books (really just Dune) show how the Guild was once such a power, yet have been on the decline without realising. This is revealed with a sudden bang at the end of Dune. After that, they're harnessed and not all that powerful any more.


Not entirely true. At the end of Dune, it is the Guild who appoints Paul Emperor, simply because he can destroy the spice and interstellar travel. The Guild still has a monopoly on space travel afterwards. They still enforce the Great Convention.


They do all this only on Arteides sufferance.

I don't think the Guild appointed Paul, he did that himself. The Guild withdrew their support for Shaddam, which is when Shaddam realised he was finished.

distrans
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby distrans » 19 Jun 2018 09:11

I would like to have read some of the run ins the guild had with paul and leto over the years as he placed himself in their paths as demonstration of their place in the world of the time

like he did with the sisters with his note to them he left hidden down in sitch tabr 2000 years before they found it...

georgiedenbro
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Re: they picked edric?!?!

Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Jun 2018 14:33

pcqypcqy wrote:They do all this only on Arteides sufferance.

I don't think the Guild appointed Paul, he did that himself. The Guild withdrew their support for Shaddam, which is when Shaddam realised he was finished.


It all depends on who's more afraid of losing what they have. Paul had the power to destroy the spice, and thus end the Guild. But the Guild still had monopoly and therefore the power to end space travel, which would be just as devastating (and have a similar effect). Between the two we might have thought that this would result in a stalemate, except that clearly the Guild were much more afraid of losing what they had than Paul was. The Guild's entire way of thinking was focused on preventing loss and avoiding risk, so in the game of chicken with even footing it seems they buckled immediately. The irony of the situation is that the Guild's source of power had always been that they were the ones with the power to destroy space travel. Paul did to them exactly what they had been doing to everyone else.

That said I do agree with Freak that even though Paul seemed to be calling the shots, the relevant point is that the Guild withdrawing support from Shaddam is why we know Paul became Emperor right then and there. Shaddam wasn't even a party to that decision and wasn't required to accept. Whoever the Guild agreed to support *was* Emperor, which goes to show how much power they had been wielding thus far even though it was the Emperor the Great Houses feared.
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