ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

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ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 07 Aug 2009 00:02



Ampoliros wrote:interesting

try this fact:

The new books are poorly written and very badly edited and internally inconsistent. Not an opinion, that is fact.

I'm compiling evidence as we speak. Sorry real life had to happen or i'd have it done.

I've posted a couple of the problems already on amazon.
on page 17 the book says the priest messengers had to wait for a "suitably impressive" transport to bring the message to Jessica that Paul was dead and that was why it took a month for the message to be delivered.

on page 32 the book says they took the "first available vessel" to bring the message.

can i get an official response on this inconsistency?

Page 24, Shaddam's envoy arrives. They say it was less than a month since Paul died. Page 25 Alia comments on how "it's been a month" since Paul died.

discuss.

redbugpest wrote:Could have been that the first available was suitably impressive, but it really doesn’t matter to me, the story, you (as no answer would be suitable), and is not an "Official Response" - you need to ask the authors or the publisher if you want an official response.

Nor is it the evidence of the collusion that The Dukester claimed was a FACTon a public forum.

No one is disputing that Amazon has removed reviews. Fact checked.

Now where is the evidence that makes this a FACT?

SC, Maybe you should explain to The Dukester about what Evidence and Fact mean…



I'm sorry, but assuming that Arrakis, the Imperial seat, and the sole location of the most important resource in the galaxy gets visited about once per month by a Guild Heighliner is categorically retarded.

Transportation in Winds of Dune is a major point of contention: its quite obvious that KJA doesn't care about how the system would work, he's going to write the system around how the story works, even when it totally contradicts not only his own system but the logic of a space-faring society. He obviously cannot grasp the Guild's monopoly on travel, nor the travel times.

Chew on these and get back to me with a response. Answers from Winds will not suffice, you need to think about why these questions matter in the sense of Dune Canon and simple common sense.

Why does Shaddam know about Paul's Death before Jessica?
Why does Jessica not know Chani is pregnant?
Why are all of the Female characters, even Royals and Regents forced to use public landing zones when male characters can take off from the Palace landing pad?
Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
How are Paul and Bronso hiding on the Cargo lander for "several hours" and then on the Heighliner and gone before anyone notices?
Why do the Bene Gesseritt not care at all that Young Paul has gone missing?
Why does the Guild punish Paul and Bronso for attempting (and in Bronso's case succeeding) to see a Navigator with exile to the Jongleur troop?
Why do House Atredies and House Vernius (sic) take so long to find their heirs.
Why does Leto punish Paul only by sending him to his room to think about his actions.
Why does a planetary governor pardon and release Jongleur dancers when Paul knows they are assassins who tried to assassinate said governor?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandChigger » 07 Aug 2009 00:34

Here's another I just posted in your thread over on Amazon; mentioned in the spoilers thread, too:

When Duncan and Gurney are hunting Bronso, they decide to interrogate the Wayku steward who helped them find Paul and Bronso during their Jongleur escapade years before. Examining Guild records, Duncan does his new Mentat thing and determines which ship this Ennzyn fellow must be on. They divert the ship they are on to intercept it.

The Guildship carrying Ennzyn is forced to wait over Balut until Duncan and Gurney's ship arrives. If Guild Heighliners are the fastest form of transportation AND communication in the Duniverse, how did the command to hold the ship arrive before Duncan and Gurney got there?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 07 Aug 2009 01:14

Yeah, the one place KJA could have played make new shit up (other types of guild ships) and he ignores it completely.

I added this over at amazon

the same goes for when Duncan and Gurney return to Ix to tell everyone they found where Paul and Bronso were heading to next. Leto offers to station a battalion of his troops on Ix to help House Vernius (sic) maintain power. Apparently no one is worried about how long it will take the troops to get the message and arrive on Ix, yet they are very worried that time is short for them to get to Paul and Bronso.

Duncan and Gurney spend a fucking week traveling between Chusuk and Balut when they know within a couple hours of arriving on Chusuk that Paul and Bronso are in a troupe and that Balut is thier most likely destination. Apparently it is also common knowledge that assassinations occur around Jongleur shows, yet no one seems to think that perhaps the Jongleurs are themselves the assassins.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 07 Aug 2009 01:16

SandChigger wrote:... how did the command to hold the ship arrive before Duncan and Gurney got there?

Magic faerie dust, pulled directly from Kevin J. Anderson's sphincter?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandChigger » 07 Aug 2009 01:22

:doh: Gawd, you just cannot play well with others, can you?! :lol:

Besides, I think he harvests it and stores it in one of the inside pockets of ... The Jacket!

Amp, that last line or two reminded me of Teg and his superpowers on the no-ship, no one remembering or making connections. "Whoa, how'd you get up here to the control room before me, little buddy?" "Oh ... um ... I took a quicker elevator, yeah, that's it!" :roll:

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 07 Aug 2009 01:45

No, you're right, I'm getting goofy now. A full day of preek-herding over at Amazon has rendered me near-comatose with exhaustion.

No more thread-jacking from me ... off to dream of Julie Cox, Daniela Amavia, and really big hats! :)
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandChigger » 07 Aug 2009 04:17

Oooh! Big white top hats covered in sparkly ice diamonds?! :P
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 07 Aug 2009 12:45

pg 206-7 Duncan and Gurney are searching for pictures of Bronso because he's carefully eliminated all visual records of his face!

(pg 66 Bronso of Ix appears as a giant face in the clouds in a Very Dramatic SceneTM)

Pg 207 Duncan and Gurney, one paragraph later, don't need photos of Bronso, the Ixians gave them to them.

pg 208 Duncan and Gurney are trying to figure out how pamphlets from Bronso keep getting scattered randomly across the universe. (from before, they magically appear in people's travel gear)

pg 207 Duncan has recruited OVER 9000! mentats (sorry, only OVER 900, but the cultural reference is obvious as well as being audience appropriate. If you don't know the reference go here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq5csKvXCT4)

pg 208 Duncan does a calculation of where Bronso's pamphlets are coming from and guesses Bronso is using the GUILD ships to distribute it. NO WAY! REALLY!?!? OMG I THOUGHT HE WAS USING FORTUNE COOKIES AND GOLDEN TICKETS.

pg 208 Gurney tells Duncan he must be right, because he saw Way-cool gypsies putting them out on the guild ship.


EDIT OOPS:
pg 208 Duncan tells Gurney that he DID (not could) do a mentat summation of the data, but it would take time to explain.
Last edited by Ampoliros on 07 Aug 2009 19:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 07 Aug 2009 12:47

Is it a parody, do you think?

Is Winds of Dune actually a parody of a real Dune book? Are Hacky and Bobo clever enough to pull something like that off?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 07 Aug 2009 13:22

TheDukester wrote:Is it a parody, do you think?

Is Winds of Dune actually a parody of a real Dune book? Are Hacky and Bobo clever enough to pull something like that off?


:crazy:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 07 Aug 2009 13:23

It was a joke, son.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 07 Aug 2009 19:30

I had to edit one of the posts because I had made an error.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 05:11

TheDukester wrote:It was a joke, son.


I know :wink:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 08:59

Isbar – Page 18
“We needed to make the proper arrangements, and gather a party of appropriate importance. It was necessary to obtain a sufficiently impressive Guild ship to bring this terrible news”

Isbar – Page 32
“…we took the first vessel available after Regent Alia…”

Here we have two conversations. In the context of the first conversation, Isbar is upset by Jessica’s angry outburst, and is obviously searching for excuses for the long delay in getting word to Jessica.
In the second conversation, Isbar is now trying to impress Jessica with the power of Alia and the priesthood by claiming that they took the first ship available, forcing all the passengers to be delayed.
Isbar is now being pushed into the role of a sycophant, which is in keeping with the tenor of the religion as it evolves into what we see in later in CoD.


“Page 24, Shaddam's envoy arrives. They say it was less than a month since Paul died. Page 25 Alia comments on how "it's been a month" since Paul died”

The difference is that one is the voice of the narrator, while the other is actual dialog. People do have a tendency to round dates and times to approximate in conversation. I think that it is just as correct for Alia to refer to 27 days as a month.

My earlier comment was meant as a tongue and cheek response. In all reality, Alia would have been the one to make the decision on when and how to inform Jessica, as Isbar mentioned on Page 32.

In regards to some of the other questions:

Why does Shaddam know about Paul's Death before Jessica?
Shaddam, being a rival for the throne, would have had a spy network, and would know of these events rapidly.

Why does Jessica not know Chani is pregnant?

Not sure - don’t remember if she knew in the originals

Why are all of the Female characters, even Royals and Regents forced to use public landing zones when male characters can take off from the Palace landing pad?

Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.

How are Paul and Bronso hiding on the Cargo lander for "several hours" and then on the Heighliner and gone before anyone notices?
To build drama in the story.

Why do the Bene Gesseritt not care at all that Young Paul has gone missing?
They were mad a Jessica, and punishing her. Besides, if Paul died young, they would be able to get Jessica to bear the girl she was ordered to in the first place.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Aug 2009 09:07

redbugpest wrote:Isbar – Page 18
“We needed to make the proper arrangements, and gather a party of appropriate importance. It was necessary to obtain a sufficiently impressive Guild ship to bring this terrible news”

Isbar – Page 32
“…we took the first vessel available after Regent Alia…”

Here we have two conversations. In the context of the first conversation, Isbar is upset by Jessica’s angry outburst, and is obviously searching for excuses for the long delay in getting word to Jessica.
In the second conversation, Isbar is now trying to impress Jessica with the power of Alia and the priesthood by claiming that they took the first ship available, forcing all the passengers to be delayed.
Isbar is now being pushed into the role of a sycophant, which is in keeping with the tenor of the religion as it evolves into what we see in later in CoD.


“Page 24, Shaddam's envoy arrives. They say it was less than a month since Paul died. Page 25 Alia comments on how "it's been a month" since Paul died”

The difference is that one is the voice of the narrator, while the other is actual dialog. People do have a tendency to round dates and times to approximate in conversation. I think that it is just as correct for Alia to refer to 27 days as a month.

My earlier comment was meant as a tongue and cheek response. In all reality, Alia would have been the one to make the decision on when and how to inform Jessica, as Isbar mentioned on Page 32.

In regards to some of the other questions:

Why does Shaddam know about Paul's Death before Jessica?
Shaddam, being a rival for the throne, would have had a spy network, and would know of these events rapidly.

Why does Jessica not know Chani is pregnant?

Not sure - don’t remember if she knew in the originals

Why are all of the Female characters, even Royals and Regents forced to use public landing zones when male characters can take off from the Palace landing pad?

Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.

How are Paul and Bronso hiding on the Cargo lander for "several hours" and then on the Heighliner and gone before anyone notices?
To build drama in the story.

Why do the Bene Gesseritt not care at all that Young Paul has gone missing?
They were mad a Jessica, and punishing her. Besides, if Paul died young, they would be able to get Jessica to bear the girl she was ordered to in the first place.


Let me first say that these answers are pathetic. "To build drama in the story"? You think that's a proper excuse to shit on FH's established work? Difference in the narrator? How many fucking narrators does Dune have?

Security was a joke throughout the novels? Are you fucking serious? The Harkonnens sealed a fucking fuy inside of walls to wait for the right moment. It was a trap laid far in advance. Tell me how security was a joke in one fucking FH novel! You are an idiot.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 10:05

You are just being closed minded and have a chip on your shoulder.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it. I feel that in the origional that FH could have easily said that his security sweeps found somone int he walls, becasue they should have. We can and do use tech today that will show a person's heat signature, and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had, they would be unable to find a person hidden in a wall.

Did they not think that there might be traps?
Did they not look to make sure no one was hiding?
Didn't the Duke have a Mentat in charge of securing their new home?

Poor security to enrich the story. How else would Paul get Mapes to be indebted to him, and give him the warning?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Aug 2009 10:08

redbugpest wrote:Security was a joke all throughout the novels.

Go.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 10:11

redbugpest wrote:You are just being closed minded and have a chip on your shoulder.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it. I feel that in the origional that FH could have easily said that his security sweeps found somone int he walls, becasue they should have. We can and do use tech today that will show a person's heat signature, and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had, they would be unable to find a person hidden in a wall.

Did they not think that there might be traps?
Did they not look to make sure no one was hiding?
Didn't the Duke have a Mentat in charge of securing their new home?

Poor security to enrich the story. How else would Paul get Mapes to be indebted to him, and give him the warning?


Read the book again and especially the scene in which Hawat explains that he is bothered by the fact how easy he finds the traps and spies et cetera. Moving to Arrakis was rushed and hasty, THAT was the reason why they hadn't found all traps yet. If you want to discuss Dune you better try to read and understand what you read otherwise you are just spouting mumbo-jumbo like the Dicktahack.


EDIT:

From God-Emperor, first edition US page 19:

"A guild envoy had waited upon Leto earlier to warn that the Ixians had deliverd a lasgun to this Duncan.

Bye bye Conway!
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 08 Aug 2009 10:34

redbugpest wrote:... and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had ...

Did you just say Dune is a "high-tech" setting? :shock:

Seriously?

You realize they don't even have pocket calculators, right? You realize that the Butlerian Jihad basically froze all of the various technologies where they were at the time? And instead promoted human advancement over technological advancement?

Or maybe you don't ... :doh:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby loremaster » 08 Aug 2009 11:03

of course he doesnt, the butlerian jihad was against those shiny-skeletoned transvestites in his duniverse.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 12:57

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:You are just being closed minded and have a chip on your shoulder.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it. I feel that in the origional that FH could have easily said that his security sweeps found somone int he walls, becasue they should have. We can and do use tech today that will show a person's heat signature, and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had, they would be unable to find a person hidden in a wall.

Did they not think that there might be traps?
Did they not look to make sure no one was hiding?
Didn't the Duke have a Mentat in charge of securing their new home?

Poor security to enrich the story. How else would Paul get Mapes to be indebted to him, and give him the warning?


Read the book again and especially the scene in which Hawat explains that he is bothered by the fact how easy he finds the traps and spies et cetera. Moving to Arrakis was rushed and hasty, THAT was the reason why they hadn't found all traps yet. If you want to discuss Dune you better try to read and understand what you read otherwise you are just spouting mumbo-jumbo like the Dicktahack.


EDIT:

From God-Emperor, first edition US page 19:

"A guild envoy had waited upon Leto earlier to warn that the Ixians had deliverd a lasgun to this Duncan.
Bye bye Conway!


You would think that since they went over there as an advance party to secure the new Ducal residence, that they would first start with the rooms that the Duke’s family would be in.

The truth of the matter is that FH wanted there to be a spy in the wall, so he created an atmosphere where this could happen, and had the characters in play miss this person because they were “rushed”.

Will you tell me next that they felt the basement was the most logical place to start, and that they had not made it to Paul’s rooms yet, or that they just didn’t know what rooms Paul would be in?

On the other quote – How did the guild representative know about the lasegun, but security had no clue? Why didn’t the Guild Rep tell security? It would have been far less dramatic a story had the Guild Rep told the Fish Speakers and they had taken it from him instead.

Again, you are trying to say that something that is a literary choice by the author, to perpetuate the plotline, is OK in one instance, but bad in another.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 13:02

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had ...

Did you just say Dune is a "high-tech" setting? :shock:

Seriously?

You realize they don't even have pocket calculators, right? You realize that the Butlerian Jihad basically froze all of the various technologies where they were at the time? And instead promoted human advancement over technological advancement?

Or maybe you don't ... :doh:


They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today... I find it hard to beleive that they could not do thermal scanning.....
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 13:04

Jesus fuck you Conway! Are you deliberately this stupid or did you have to really try for it?

What is the point discussing with you if you do not understand the simplest of things?

There was NO security breach in God-Emeperor!!!! LETO KNEW that Duncan had a lasgun and ALLOWED it.

In Dune Frank explains that NO security system is flawless because of circumstances. The Atrocities just have the worst security system imaginable WITHOUT a decent reason or circumstance. The writers just didn't pay any attention to this type of detail. That is bad writing ... that is why they ARE atrocities.

Capiche?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 13:09

redbugpest wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had ...

Did you just say Dune is a "high-tech" setting? :shock:

Seriously?

You realize they don't even have pocket calculators, right? You realize that the Butlerian Jihad basically froze all of the various technologies where they were at the time? And instead promoted human advancement over technological advancement?

Or maybe you don't ... :doh:


They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today... I find it hard to beleive that they could not do thermal scanning.....


You are aware that if you use the premise that the future is more advanced they also are probably more advanced in "fooling" security systems?

Now ... THINK again Conway. Your arguments do not hold any value so far.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 13:16

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had ...

Did you just say Dune is a "high-tech" setting? :shock:

Seriously?

You realize they don't even have pocket calculators, right? You realize that the Butlerian Jihad basically froze all of the various technologies where they were at the time? And instead promoted human advancement over technological advancement?

Or maybe you don't ... :doh:


They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today... I find it hard to beleive that they could not do thermal scanning.....


You are aware that if you use the premise that the future is more advanced they also are probably more advanced in "fooling" security systems?

Now ... THINK again Conway. Your arguments do not hold any value so far.


Where does it say how they fooled the security. And please don't cite the sealed in a wall passage. it is really not that concrete an argument.

Now you are creating the same kinds of leaps of logic that you call me out on.
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