Obama kills Moon

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Obama kills Moon

Postby SandRider » 01 Feb 2010 23:35

am I to understand that they are going to turn over transport to and from the ISS to private corporations ?

on the one hand, okay, since Americans require a profit-motive to get off their asses,
maybe something will get seriously done, alot quicker than NASA could do.

on the other hand, I've seen this movie called Alien.

{and Avatar for that matter}

I'd rather have the military in complete control of the space program than the corporations ...
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Omphalos » 02 Feb 2010 01:01

There is no way in hell that space is ever going to get developed if we have to rely on the government to do it. Personally I think that this is a great thing. Bush's moon vision was nothing but a bunch of ghee-whiz goals that he turned over to NASA to realize. What we need is a national policy space policy worked up, with some concrete goals, then we need to tell vendors, corporations and NASA what to do.

Are we going to have to deal with orbital billboards one day? Probably. But at least we will get the fuck out there and find some real rewards for our expenditures.

The last people who should be in charge of space are the military. The only thing that they can see is a downward assault, and protectionism is not going to get our asses past the moon.

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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Drunken Idaho » 02 Feb 2010 02:17

SandRider wrote:am I to understand that they are going to turn over transport to and from the ISS to private corporations ?

on the one hand, okay, since Americans require a profit-motive to get off their asses,
maybe something will get seriously done, alot quicker than NASA could do.

on the other hand, I've seen this movie called Alien.

{and Avatar for that matter}

I'd rather have the military in complete control of the space program than the corporations ...



A surprising move indeed, but let's face it: space exploration doesn't get the federal funding it really needs currently, and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon. It is somewhat dangerous, handing it over to the private sector, however it's an inevitable step as far as I'm concerned and therefore I welcome it. Definitely didn't expect to see it happen this soon though.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Ampoliros » 02 Feb 2010 16:58

I'm gonna start work on a backyard Orbital strike rocket to keep my own skies clear.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Omphalos » 02 Feb 2010 21:27

Ampoliros wrote:I'm gonna start work on a backyard Orbital strike rocket to keep my own skies clear.


Apparently that will soon be legal.

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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby SandRider » 02 Feb 2010 21:38

so can Andy Griffith get some kinda retro-compensation for the Men in Black confiscating Salvage One ?

or a tax-break or something ?


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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Omphalos » 03 Feb 2010 02:01

I watched every episode of that show.

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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby trang » 03 Feb 2010 08:17

overall its a bummer, and obama just went down a peg in my book (not that I had hi regard in the first place). Its a slippery slope on discussion where space exploration/commercialization/exploitation lands I guess.

The arguments against space are long and lengthy, and I understand.
The arguments for are smaller but still valid.

I debate this in my head so many dam ways that it seems impossible to keep a clear perspective.

I am for going to space, in all forms.

I'm not for Walmart taking it over.

I'm not for the bottom line being the deciding factor.

There has to be defined goals and objectives that, in the short term, give tangible results we can use.

These tangibles can be used to develop the longer term goals and objectives (asteroid defense systems, global monitoring systems, space observatories and scientific facility's, outward spin bases, Outward spin exploration, etc)

Not sure where we are gonna end up, but its looking more and more like its another 100 years ( and dammit all to hell I wont be here) before we ever reach the pioneering level.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby SandRider » 03 Feb 2010 12:43

I might have said this before somewhere, but one of the grievances all three of my boys have against me
is that in the 70's I gave them books like "You Too Will Live in Space!" and talked alot about Freeman Dyson's
plans for the colony @L7 and so forth, getting them involved in following Apollo-Soyuz, SpaceLab, and the
Shuttle (the middle boy was apoplectic that they named the first one "Enterprise" - it's bullshit, Daddy,
that damn thing's never actually going into space
- as they got older they realized we were pretty optimistic
high-sighted after the Lunar Missions (or maybe just high) and that the Program wasn't going as quick as we
promised - the Challenger accident in 86 put a nail the coffin. they started bringing it up @ holidays - Say,
Daddy, when we gonna get that Moon Ride ?
- disillusionment of youth is an ugly, ugly thing ...

I had given up on seeing a Manned Mission to Mars in my lifetime, but had consoled myself that atleast
I'd most likely see another Manned Mission to the Moon. disillusionment of the elderly is ugly as well ...
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Feb 2010 12:47

Weren't we supposed to have flying cars and robot maids by now, too?
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Feb 2010 12:56

I'm torn on this too, I'd hate for $$ to be the bottom line, and I don't want any of the more evil companies out there gaining too much control of the space industry (...Coke), but realistically that's not what's happening yet. Governments will still do most of the same research as before, they're just be buying rides from Virgin and the likes, not a big deal really. Canada has never had space launches, but we've managed to be a very significant part of space programs.

People talk about "slippery slopes" for almost ever single situation you can think of in life, and sometimes it's a valid comment, but humanity as a rule live on a slippery slope and nowhere else. That's part of what FH was always going on about, stagnation is trying to get off the slope. Not every slipperly slope will be slid down, and the only way to progress is up those same slopes.

Life goes on. The reality is that if the US is in too deep for stuff like this then it really has no choice but to humble up for a bit, tighten the belt in areas like this that do absolutely nothing to put food in anyones mouths, and ride it out until such a time as they can get back to doing crazy stuff like having enormous space programs.
Last edited by A Thing of Eternity on 03 Feb 2010 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Feb 2010 12:58

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Life goes on. The reality is that if the US is in too deep for stuff like this then it really has no choice but to humble up for a bit, tighten the belt in areas like this that do absolutely nothing to put food in anyones mouths, and ride it out until such a time as they can get back to doing crazy stuff like having enormous space programs.


AToE in 2012!
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby SandRider » 03 Feb 2010 13:02

why not ?

according to Glenn Beck, you apparently don't have to be a citizen to be POTUS.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby SandChigger » 03 Feb 2010 17:21

A Thing of Eternity wrote:areas like this that do absolutely nothing to put food in anyones mouths

:doh:

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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Feb 2010 17:24

Ya know... a lot of the common items we use today in our daily lives were invented space programs.

http://spaceplace.jpl.nasa.gov/en/kids/spinoffs2.shtml
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby SandChigger » 03 Feb 2010 17:48

Exactly.

It's kinda like war, with the spinoff tech that eventually trickles down into civilian use.

And this just in (5 hours ago):

Iran has successfully sent a research rocket into space as the country marked its National Space Day.

Defence Minister Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi hailed the successful launch saying: "Iran will not tolerate any non-peaceful use of space by any country."

Technicians said that live video transmission and a "mini-environmental lab" aboard the Explorer-3 will enable further studies on an "experimental capsule" containing a mouse, a turtle and worms.

Iran launched its first domestically made satellite a year ago which ended its mission in late March after 40 days in orbit.

The wrong people are going to get there before us. A few years back the Chinese announced plans to put a man on the moon by 2020. They haven't cancelled or extended the date so far as I know.

Oh well.

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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Feb 2010 18:06

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:areas like this that do absolutely nothing to put food in anyones mouths

:doh:


Slamming my lack of an ' in the word "anyone's" or the concept in general? I'm not saying there aren't lots of real positive things that come out of space programs, but when times get tough I think stuff like that should be the first thing to go, rather than what the givernment usually insists on starting with, cutting funding for schools and healthcare (in our case, not yours obviously for that second example).

Especially when you're so deep in debt that it's getting dangerous, not really the time for crazy shit in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe space programs are the best thing for getting out of debt and I'm just missing it!
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Feb 2010 19:16

It does employ a lot of people.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Feb 2010 19:35

Freakzilla wrote:It does employ a lot of people.


True, but so does auto manufacturing and I think we should let that crash and burn... that's private sector though.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Feb 2010 19:55

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:It does employ a lot of people.


True, but so does auto manufacturing and I think we should let that crash and burn... that's private sector though.


There'd already be a fuckin' McDonalds in a Walmart on Mars if it was up to the private sector.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby trang » 03 Feb 2010 20:08

hey maybe we use the money from space budget, in short term, to finally cure some diseases and learn how to double or triple the life span of everyone so we can be in the work force longer and make more money so we can do crazy shit in space. Living longer we might actually see the results!!!

If I Live an average of 300 years, tripping the fantastic around the solar system in 10-20 years on a putt-putt spacecraft wouldn't be such a big deal. (I'm taking a 2-foot thick lead lined suit for protection from gamma rays, but still would be willing to go if my life expectancy was near that)

Just cant get those big projects done in 75 years. When ya sleep away 25, spend 10 eating and crapping, and 25 working to make money, just doesn't leave room for many for grandiose plans does it.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Ampoliros » 03 Feb 2010 21:37

Space industry really needs to be explored as a possibility for some of our current problems, the most prevalent of which will soon become over population. Colonization has been the traditional solution to that (aside from war and famine). Orbitals, Giant Solar Panels, etc. Sure its, Science Fiction now but how hard would it really be to do if we put the mindset and funding aside to do it? Heck, if we could get most of our industry into space near earth then pollution isn't nearly as much of a problem.

Of course my solution to this is get rid of money completely which isn't too popular or even very practical with most people's philosophy.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Feb 2010 12:20

Ampoliros wrote:Space industry really needs to be explored as a possibility for some of our current problems, the most prevalent of which will soon become over population. Colonization has been the traditional solution to that (aside from war and famine). Orbitals, Giant Solar Panels, etc. Sure its, Science Fiction now but how hard would it really be to do if we put the mindset and funding aside to do it? Heck, if we could get most of our industry into space near earth then pollution isn't nearly as much of a problem.

Of course my solution to this is get rid of money completely which isn't too popular or even very practical with most people's philosophy.


Man, off-world solutions for overpopulation are an utter pipe-dream. The cost to build a station that could house maybe a thousand people would probably bankrupt every country on our planet combined, the technology and pricing just isn't anywhere near where it needs to be yet.

I'd say we have at least 100 years before this kind of idea becomes even remotely possible, and then at least 100 or 200 more before we can actually put something in space that'll house enough people to make any difference whatsoever... and that's being EXTREMELY optomistic.

I love SF, and I love space exploration, but off-world solutions for over-population are by far the most complicated, expensive and unacheivable ideas possible. Much better to just control our population, we'll get there eventually, and the single most important step in fighting population will be fighting poverty and aiding education.

We'll be dead a thousand times over if we wait for a space-based solution to any of our problems.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Feb 2010 12:45

When I think about where we were 100 years ago, I don't know how you can say that.
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Re: Obama kills Moon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Feb 2010 13:42

Freakzilla wrote:When I think about where we were 100 years ago, I don't know how you can say that.

Look at where they thought we'd be by now 50, 40, 30 years ago, and that's how I can cay that. They were looking at another 10 years just to put one measly little ship on the moon again. To build ANYTHING of real structure in space we will have to be mining the moon, we simply cannot fly up all the parts. So what's a reasonable time frame to set up a full mining operation on the moon? And manufaturing facilities, big ones. And build infrastructure to launch stuff from the moon into orbit so that we can put it together into a space station? I think 50 years is pretty optimistic, 100 not unreasonable - because until we have that mining and manufacturing set up, we do have to fly everything up from earth, and those facitlities alone are going to require more raw material and parts sent up than we've sent up in the entire last 60 years. Just to get STARTED. Then we have to build something the size of an oceanliner in space, with hpefully robots instead of construction workers (robots can be built up there, people have to be flown up). And then people start asking... why?

Technology isn't really the issue, I don't expect that to slow down. The issue is more that no matter how good our tech gets, putting stuff into space will remain expensive. It'll get cheaper, but only relatively.

People are ok with spending huge amountson space programs because it doesn't seem to negatively impact their lives, but a project like building even a small space habitat would run entire nations into the ground, just to put a tiny tiny number of people into space. I don't think anyone will even try, there are simply better ways to spend the money.

I'm not saying it isn't going to happen, but I think that tech level is only a small facet of the obstacles facing a project like that, money and politics will play a much bigger roll.



Now - if in the next 50 years we get some absolutely insanely good self replicating tech going that can spin fullerene fibres in space and build meters of material a day... then we might get somewhere in the next 100 years.
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